The boring mage of red

[Duelle]

RDM has more or less always been primarily a spellcaster. Your argument is it should change simply because its an MMO.

And your argument is basically "RDM was used in a specific way in the console FFs, and I'm ignoring that turn-based combat requires different design from other game genres". SE already took the first step in the right direction when they gave RDM enspells in FFXI, so all I'm doing is following that idea to its logical conclusion, and using examples from other MMOs to help bring that to fruition. As I said, if you want I can give you a list of mechanics that work for a sword & spell hybrid, which in essence is what we call a Red Mage. Or are you going to tell me that a system where a RDM is comboing melee skills and white/black magic spells (which can be done in a couple of ways) does not play into the hybrid nature of the job?

you wanted a spell casting sword user.

That is what a Red Mage is... A class that uses spells and sword. If you wanted a ranged caster that does white and black magic, we do have the Sage job sitting in the wings. If you really want to redefine a job with the white vs black thing, you could even use the Oracle/Ying-yang Mage/Mystic job for that.

Lots of things change when you move into an MMO. Our Summoner is not a black mage with sprite art instead of particle effects, but a job that has a pet and a resource system that allows it to call Bahamut (something the FFXI summoner could not do). Our ninja is not solely justified in its existence by dual wield and throwing consumable items, but by being up-close in combat with Mudras. Our Fighter/Warrior is not just a guy that auto-attacks/presses the Fight command a lot, but a tank with skills that change depending on their current stance. Our Scholar is a dedicated healer instead of the white/black magic hybrid it was in FFXI. Likewise our version of Geomancer will probably be a ranged nuker or healer, depending on which side of the elements SE chooses to go with. Our Templar might end up being another tank to join PLD, DRK and WAR instead of a debuff-oriented knight. "It played like this in the console FFs" is not an acceptable excuse, especially when it comes to classes that were held back by the limits of turn-based combat.

[7-car-pileup]

It's like theres no real options in our rotations to do better, you hit the OGCD stuff as soon as possible, you ramp up as quickly as possible and you hit the coloured animation you need to fill the right bar. You don't go "Maybe I need to save up mana charge to do a different combo" or "I need to do verfire/stone for a buff and if I don't my dps will fall off" You just hit everything as quickly as possible because holding onto mana is just wasted mellee combos as the fight goes on.

[7-car-pileup]

Like, you don't choose verholy or verflare, you just do whichever is more appropriate for your bars.

Like if you compare it to almost every other dps, other dps get a 5-15% damage buff to maintain through rotations. Red mage damage falls off over longer fights due to dots outpacing the OGCDs and us having to cast two spells (allbeit faster) to achieve the same potency of other classes. Like, if anyone says "Red mage does stronger spells because they cast twice" is forgetting A) Black mage's elemental attunements mean theyre getting 80% more potency on their fire spells and thanks to icy heart stacks they get more fire spells than ever before and B) It's still two global cooldowns you have to use, even if a black mage has to spend an extra half seccond on each fire IV theyre gaining on average 1.5 seconds worth of damage inbetween. Not even taking into consideration that a thunder proc makes thunder almost as strong as fleche plus it applies a dot, on much the same timer.

[Krisom]

I actually enjoy the Job quite a lot it falls mostly in my expectations except for a few that are harder hitting than not.

What I like about the job is that for a caster it has high mobility, has pretty good healing for a DPS job added with a sprinkle of resurrection and mixed with some melee. Exactly what I expected, however its important to note I did not expect it to be this simple in terms of execution which leaves me to wonder:
Why only one combo string?
Why no positional attacks?

If we added positional attacks to the second and third part of the combo where hitting the right notes gives you black and white mana that alone would make the melee aspect more engaging and that is without the idea of giving them an extra combo for a buff or debuff.

It kind of makes me wish that the Support role was not just "Physical Ranged DPS with support abilities" - Maybe Red Mage could have been an even mix between melee and casting with the same healing but with a focus of giving a boon between magic and melee at the same time so they can fit the "Support" role.

[seraseth]

I'm very happy to have a simple job. There are plenty of alternatives if you want more complication in your dps jobs.

Not every job needs to be the same difficulty/complication level. Some people are less skilled, or just don't enjoy doing the gymnastics other jobs take. HW took away the only simple job when they added enochian, so it's nice they added an alternative.

So please don't try to take away the single easy dps job, you have 8 others you can play of varying complexity if this one is too simple for you.

[Mitsuhide]

I really love Red Mage, it became my new main immedietly.
However, its true that i was actually pretty dissapointed to find out just how easy this Job was ,as i thought it would be more complex with 2 different bars.
The Sword combo is nice but you use it not so often inbetween spellcasting.
While i dont mind the current playstyle much, i also wouldnt mind using the sword combo a bit more often but maybe since this is a new class SE will change something.
One could think about lowering the cost a bit or raising the generated mana to use the sword combo more often.

I was able to help alot in some new dungeons by raising the healer and heal the tank until the healer was recovered, that felt nice.
To make this playstyle a bit different you could also give the Spells an extra Effect depending on which mana is higher and maybe adding a bit to his "support style", like if you use verearo while white mana is higher the enemy gets an effect so that the targeted player gets hp for each attack,(like Bloodbath) and if you use it while black mana is higher, i dunno something different.
That way you would give the RDM more options and the player a bit more to manage.
They also could give the Melee combo a different effect depending on which mana is higher.

Though, as i said i love the class anyway.

[Krisom]

So please don't try to take away the single easy dps job, you have 8 others you can play of varying complexity if this one is too simple for you.

I do play other classes and I enjoy RDM as I stated before.
There's just not a lot of meat on the class unfortunately that could have made it more fun. - It wasn't a hard point to understand.

If I were to add positional attacks to Enchanted Zwerchhau and Enchanted Roublement that increases your black mana and white mana respectively so that you'd be able to be more active in melee and increase the amount of times you could engage.
It'd still be a simple class but a lot more engaging from such a little change.

Again let me state that I like RDM to the point where it's going to be my secondary DPS, this isn't an attack on your class.

[Shurrikhan]

You sound more like you wanted a Melee based Mage with only a little bit of spellcasting... well as usual with Final Fantasy games... the Red Mage is the opposite of that.

It's always been that way too... even from the very first Final Fantasy game back on Nintendo.

The power of the Red Mage was always in his spells... not his melee.

You can forgive a barely used tool as an 'option' in a single-player game in which a RDM was designed as a job for high mid-game flexibility and growth, but ultimately replaced by endgame for optimal performance.

Not in an MMO.

No job ought to tie in an such a seemingly integral aspect only to make ornamental use of it.

[Venjamin]

You can forgive a barely used tool as an 'option' in a single-player game in which a RDM was designed as a job for high mid-game flexibility and growth, but ultimately replaced by endgame for optimal performance.

Not in an MMO.

No job ought to tie in an such a seemingly integral aspect only to make ornamental use of it.

That's an excellent descriptor for how the sword feels. Ornamental in nature. It could be replaced with a cast and there'd be no difference except in position.

[Tila]

And your argument is basically "RDM was used in a specific way in the console FFs, and I'm ignoring that turn-based combat requires different design from other game genres". SE already took the first step in the right direction when they gave RDM enspells in FFXI, so all I'm doing is following that idea to its logical conclusion, and using examples from other MMOs to help bring that to fruition. As I said, if you want I can give you a list of mechanics that work for a sword & spell hybrid, which in essence is what we call a Red Mage. Or are you going to tell me that a system where a RDM is comboing melee skills and white/black magic spells (which can be done in a couple of ways) does not play into the hybrid nature of the job?
That is what a Red Mage is... A class that uses spells and sword. If you wanted a ranged caster that does white and black magic, we do have the Sage job sitting in the wings. If you really want to redefine a job with the white vs black thing, you could even use the Oracle/Ying-yang Mage/Mystic job for that.

Lots of things change when you move into an MMO. Our Summoner is not a black mage with sprite art instead of particle effects, but a job that has a pet and a resource system that allows it to call Bahamut (something the FFXI summoner could not do). Our ninja is not solely justified in its existence by dual wield and throwing consumable items, but by being up-close in combat with Mudras. Our Fighter/Warrior is not just a guy that auto-attacks/presses the Fight command a lot, but a tank with skills that change depending on their current stance. Our Scholar is a dedicated healer instead of the white/black magic hybrid it was in FFXI. Likewise our version of Geomancer will probably be a ranged nuker or healer, depending on which side of the elements SE chooses to go with. Our Templar might end up being another tank to join PLD, DRK and WAR instead of a debuff-oriented knight. "It played like this in the console FFs" is not an acceptable excuse, especially when it comes to classes that were held back by the limits of turn-based combat.

Even in FFXI RDM's job wasnt to melee. You had your melee buffs, and that was it. You then sat there and melee attacked during the very rare occasions you werent constantly casting. Many RDM flat out didnt melee and would switch to staffs. If anything, RDM is more melee heavy in FFXIV than it was in FFXI.

Once more, you wanted it to be something its never been.

Show me an iteration of RDM that primarily meleed and you'll have an argument, untill then you're just saying you wanted it to be something its not.