[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Carpe]

i don't see much of a difference between CON/WHM and THM/WHM or MRD/DRK and LNC/DRK.

Why should there be a significant difference between a WHM/CON and a WHM/THM? They are both White Mages. Was there a significant difference between a WHM/BLM or a WHM/RDM? In each case White Mage defines you as a party-support/healing class.

There is however a big different between a WHM/CON and a DRK/LNC. That's the difference that matters because you would expect that a WHM would be very different from a DRK.

[Cairdeas]

The difference used as an example in the OPs post is , CON/BLM using instant dmg while THM/BLM uses over time dmg but this difference exists now without the addition of job titles.

The problem is people do not understand this so a system being put in place that reinforces it and lets people understand that "You can make any job you want they just operate differently based on your Weapon Class" and gives you bonuses for following patterns for the Job itself while not removing the ability for customization would fix a lot of what people complain about.

[Joe_Cool]

@ Carpe

Just read the idea for "Two-Tier Class System" and I gotta say, I like it.

Whichever way FFXIV decides to go with their class system, something important to me that I hope they keep is the ability to change classes just by changing weapons.

Going to quote something you said."The main theme of character development in FFXIV i think should be not to prevent certain choices, but to encourage/discourage certain choices."

[Shura]

Your right there is a big difference between WHM/CON and DRK/LNC but that difference already exists between CON and LNC. If you feel that there does not need to be a defining role difference between WHM/CON and WHM/THM then my question to you is why even add this system, CON and THM are similar as it is and if you just want the skills from WHM Job title, then just add those skills to CON or/and THM and the other can just equip it, the way the system is now; why go through the trouble of adding a new system.

I think what most ppl complained about in regards to the current system was not the name of the classes but the fact they did not have Defining roles to differentiate each class in terms of gameplay. You can have the exact same skills equipped on MRD, LNC, PUG and not see much of a difference in role and i don't see this proposed system fixing that underline issue. If every class is allowed to equip every job title. My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

[Eremor]

One question I have about your proposal is how do you implement PET classes like BST and SMN? If I had to set up a specific core of abilities in my loadout to unlock those two classes than I would think you would have to introduce some kind of pet master/caller weapon and have their abilities have similar shared names since there doesn't seem to be enough spells/abilities out there to justify having a separate BST weapon and a separate SMN weapon.

That's a good question, and I have no idea how they would implement a Pet job. It probably would have to be a new weapon discipline with a whole new set of skills. But that seems to be a discussion for the future, for now we should focus on changes that affect the disciplines that are currently in the game.

[kukurumei]

No matter the intentions it's just doesn't feel very practical. All it really does is push the problem for a few months before it becomes the exact same problems.

Once everyone figure out the "super class" combinations, it's back to the same old, crap.

All I see this current proposal is adding more things to the fire in hopes people won't notice the fire.

[Mishakai]

OK.. Hmm..

@OP.. That's alot of info to digest..

/reserved

And it's 7 pages down...

Initial Thoughts:

I think the current problem with the Armory system doesn't stem from the system itself, rather the perceived roles and abilities that certain classes/jobs/whatnot should have.

People define the Guardian as the "Tank" because they are the only melee class with the ability to equip a shield, not because of the abilities they get. Arguably, marauders make a better tank (at least earlier on) because of defender. Theoretically, I could make a Marauder Tank with the proper abilities and traits from other classes; quite easily actually. I know this is what you're changes are supposed to facilitate, but I believe that the current system facilitates it just fine.

The issue you speak of goes away if people ask for a role rather than a class when looking to fill a spot in a group. Technically, with the armory system, I could make a Guardian whose role is Healer and do just as good as a Conjurer if played properly (made easier now by auto MP Regen out of combat).

Honestly, the Armory system is the absolute LAST thing I want SE to touch. I'd rather them fix things that are obviously a decade behind the curve in MMO technology than change things that may very well be "next generation" and completely misunderstood.

From an equipment perspective:

Rather than defining binary boundaries between what gear each class can equip, they defined a set of rules that modifies the attribute bonuses granted based on how well mated a piece of gear is with the class that has it equipped. This follows along the lines of.. yeah, a mage can wear plate but his spells might not be as effective, or that a Tank could wear cloth, but not get quite the protection expected from a full suite of plate. That's not to say they don;t have other abilities to compensate.

XIV is not complete in this regard, however, there is a definite uniqueness offered by the Armory that is absent in just about every other MMO I have played. To bring in buzzwords.. The Armory system is a very sandboxy trait in an historically theme-park based IP.

I'd rather they expand around the possibilities of the Armory system before limiting it to humor more conventional approaches.

[OmegaNovaios]

Your right there is a big difference between WHM/CON and DRK/LNC but that difference already exists between CON and LNC. If you feel that there does not need to be a defining role difference between WHM/CON and WHM/THM then my question to you is why even add this system, CON and THM are similar as it is and if you just want the skills from WHM Job title, then just add those skills to CON or/and THM and the other can just equip it, the way the system is now; why go through the trouble of adding a new system.

I think what most ppl complained about in regards to the current system was not the name of the classes but the fact they did not have Defining roles to differentiate each class in terms of gameplay. You can have the exact same skills equipped on MRD, LNC, PUG and not see much of a difference in role and i don't see this proposed system fixing that underline issue. If every class is allowed to equip every job title. My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

The difference is this:
DRK/LNC has minor differences from DRK/MRD, but let's look at FFXI which has a very good role system. RDM/WHM has minor differences from RDM/BLM. Minors differences is ok between similar roles. The main issue with the Armoury System is that roles are not defined not because we can't make them (because we easily can) it's because we can make them too easily and every class can basically do the same thing as every other class if they have the same actions equipped.

Now let's look at major differences that was proposed in this thread. This thread proposed that all actions will be heavily affected by your class/title combination. An example given was for the action effectiveness of Cure that WHM has 100%, PLD has 75%, and other jobs would have 50% effectiveness.

This forces people into roles so not every class can use Cure now for the same effectiveness on every class which is what it is like now if every class has the same MND value. Now if you do this with every action even a DRK/LNC can be very different from a DRK/MRD, but extremely different between a DRK and WHM. To give you a good example of a problem FFXIV has is that I can hit 600 damage with doomspike + attack buffs as LNC. I can also hit 600 damage as THM with the same attack buffs and at range (and with the same attributes and gear). I can essentially do everything on every class.

This is the problem with FFXIV and heavily affecting actions individually based on title fixes this. Now by adding titles this also adds to uniqueness and adds another layer to customization which is IMO very close to combining FFXI and FFXIV together which I think is a good idea (since adding a title reminds me of adding a sub job but not half your level). By adding this customization element of a title it adds a lot of uniqueness because it gives EXCLUSIVES than can't be pooled to every class, but still allows all actions to be "sandboxed" like it is currently and makes using each action more unique because of the penalty differences.

This overall forces roles to be made and yes some things have less differences than others, but its nice to not be exactly the same as some else even if they are the same role as you are.

[kukurumei]

Honestly, the Armory system is the absolute LAST thing I want SE to touch. I'd rather them fix things that are obviously a decade behind the curve in MMO technology than change things that may very well be "next generation" and completely misunderstood.

That's arguably the first thing they need to touch. The armoury in essence is the weak link in any proposal to fix things. It's inherent idea of flexibly is flaws beyond a few patches.

This is how it currently works:
"OK who wants to tank?"
"I do" equips proper skill combination -tanks monster
everyone else /sit

Ok who wants to DD? 10 spots
-people equip skil combos BR spots
/sit

Whether you're a arc or a glad or anything doesn't matter, because it takes 3 seconds to leave the party and become that role. Everyone is the exact same you are sitting in the side lines or doing something anyone else can do.

Arguably the only real role that is unique at this point is the healer, since only DoM can AoE. and Arc only because of AoE range.

It's basically a clone wars. Just because you have roles doesn't make you any more special. /leave party /join party is all that seperate everyone.

The armory system breeds clones basically. You are role outsourced at the drop of a dime, because anyone can be anything simply leaving a party.

A system combination on top of another combinations only makes that 3 second /leave party into 10 seconds /leave party.

[pilot]

My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

I dont see much differentiation between these three beyond weapon based actions in relationship to affinity. i DO see this system supplying players with another layer of specific potential, pointing at how one might interpret such a title/job to be taken advantage of. Maybe it makes sense to use a DRK specific action similar to Souleater in conjuction with Bloodbath. If you want Bloodbath full potency then maybe DRK/MRD makes sense. DRK/THM might make sense for a different scenario.

Even another subtle layer of specificity might be attained through something like job specific armor. Maybe PGL and THM cant wear DRK specific armor. DRK specific armor would probably further highlight aspects the role a developer thinks DRK should fill.

I am strongly in favor of the player scuplting particular builds roles as the variables to be considered in many different tasks (eg. party size, specific monster, are we in this for SP or one boss kill) are "infinite". After a certain point you are asking the game designers to tell you how to play it seems in what youre implying. Of course lines must be drawn somewhere but again, id prefer to stave them off as long as possible.