[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Gath]

I was refering mainly to limiting certain weapons to certain titles. Instead If your skill favors your Job Title you get to use it at 100% effectiveness if your using it out of favor you can only use it at 50%.

That could work, but you need people to be limited to certain area levels with mobs. Everybody would level a BST to max rank if it means they can solo everything with that title and just level their weapon specialist to leech off of the BST. Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level. Then, maybe it would work out. Then again it would take away the grouping aspect of the game when they implement more, and we know they're going to.

[Carpe]

Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level.

If this really became a balance issue then maybe having your job title rank sync somehow with your weapon class rank like you're suggesting would be a possible solution.

Personally, I think a lot of the balance questions are hard to really think about without having some play testing and looking at some charts and numbers. If it really became a problem they could always limit titles to only using certain weapon classes, but I think for now I'd like to think of them having a more open system.

[Akumu]

I think they should be independently leveled.
One getting SP and the other getting JP.
Also no single weapon class should be specialized to a single Title. So you could raise Beastmaster while training Archer Weapon Class and use your pet to hold a monster while you shot it at range.

Having freedom like this would really make this game stand out for the ps3 release. All beastmasters wouldn't have to be on the front lines. All Redmages wouldn't have to just stand back and cast magic(or in XI healing magic). One of the many flaws of FFXI with the subjob system.

Class uniqueness/Individual Uniqueness balanced and created with this system. This is system is what I always thought SE wanted with XI's system but the overall design was too flawed. Mainly since weapons had uneven levels and weaponskills being too powerful for some and weak for others. Which also was held back by not being able to cross class certain abilities and being limited to just one sub.

[Carpe]

Do you get both the SP for MRD and the points for the title? or do you need to level MRD first and then get the title? What about a level restriction to people who are new? They need to level a class first in all fairness, due tot hte fact that it would help create more dynamic into getting a title and getting that title to Master. or would there be a level 30-40 requirement to unlock the chance to actually start progressing through said title?

I think the consensus has been that the Title should level up independently of the Weapon Class. This doesn't mean that they can't be leveled up at the same time it just means that sp goes towards leveling up your weapon class, while (job/title points? or some other leveling mechanism) is what levels up your title. You might do something (like maybe combat/leve) that allows you to level up both because it gives you sp/jp at the same time the same way that you level up sp/exp at the same time now, but they are on different leveling curves.

I think because you level them up independently they should be unlocked independently, so you still can start leveling up a weapon class just by equipping that weapon, but you have to initiate a quest to start leveling up a title. Before getting your title you would be like an "adventurer" in FFV just some abilities but no real class definition. You would probably be able to unlock the titles pretty early, like around lvl 20 or something. Alternatively they could have some titles instantly available and leave others to be unlocked.

What if you don't have the weapon specialist that compliments the title you want to play? Do you practically just level up the specialist itself at the same time while you're leveling your title rank?

A weapon class is only going to compliment a title in that the title will have more abilities within that weapon class that favor it. So for example a Black Mage should have far more abilities that favor it in Thaumaturge and Conjurer, then it would have in Weapon Classes like Gladiator and Pugilist.

This doesn't prevent a BLM from grabbing a sword but he wouldn't be able to use the sword abilities as effectively as a PLD because there wouldn't be many/if any abilities in Gladiator that favor it.

Once you started leveling up your title you can always switch between weapons so a r3BLM/r40CON can always switch to his r30THM and be a r3BLM/r30THM.

Also, let's say you start of the game as a THM and quickly get the BLM title, you level it up to r5BLM/r40THM, but now you want to level up CON for some of those abilities instead of doing r5BLM/r1CON, you can switch to your r1WHM and do r1WHM/r1CON so you can level those up together to "kill to birds with one stone" kind of leveling.

[Akumu]

That could work, but you need people to be limited to certain area levels with mobs. Everybody would level a BST to max rank if it means they can solo everything with that title and just level their weapon specialist to leech off of the BST. Unless they limited the title level with that of the weapon specialist level. Then, maybe it would work out. Then again it would take away the grouping aspect of the game when they implement more, and we know they're going to.

I think it would be lowered with the weapon class.

For example: r5DRG/r50LNC
if I wanted to lvl my r20 GLA for my DRG It would probably turn out as...
r2DRG/r20GLA


I probably should have wrote it as: r20GLA/r2DRG
since I am a GLA but would specialize as a DRG.
Its like a backwards way of the subjob system from XI

[babycakin]

^.^ This is an awesome idea!

Not only would the game be keep the existing classes intact, but we would be introduced to the classic Final Fantasy job staples that the fanbase have been used to since the beginning. I also can totally see a huge array of customization using this implementation. Well done!

[Judge_Xero]

I also like the way this could be implemented. Cheers on your thoughtfulness. I hope this and some of the other ideas floating around are what SE is thinking of as well. I especially like the way this change could keep the Base Classes in the loop. Although I am not for, Dragoon + Sword, or Black Mage + Axe. But I guess if the penalties are well implemented, people could choose whatever they like. I guess even though I wouldn't feel like a Dragoon while using Bronze Knuckes, someone would. So maybe they'll keep that option open.

[Carpe]

Although I am not for, Lancer + Sword, or Black Mage + Axe. But I guess if the penalties are well implemented, people could choose whatever they like. I guess even though I wouldn't feel like a Lancer while using Bronze Knuckes, someone would. So maybe they'll keep that option open.

Thanks, I just want to point out though that you can't mix Titles with Titles or Weapon Class with Weapon Class. You can only have Title/Weapon Class. So Lancer/Sword wouldn't be possible, but Dragoon/Lancer or Dragoon/Sword would. Lancer could only use LANCE weapons which would be actual lances or weapons that would be so similar to lances that we would throw them into the same category of weapon type LANCE (Like my idea of making Scythes type AXE or type LANCE so you don't have to introduce a totally new weapon type).

[WintersMoondancer]

I really do like the idea of taking a base weapon class like MRD (Axe user), once it hits R20, then you can quest training to learn either BST or DRK skills. So while you have the base of a MRD and you are learning to walk the path of a DRK, the MRD weapon class still ranks up and you earn job points to becoming a better DRK. Then if you decide to for go playing with other and want to solo, you can still take your R50 MRD weapon class, and earn job points towards becoming a BST. Your BST job is only gimped in that it hasn't learned all the new abilities yet, but as Job Points are gained then you rank up.

Introducing a few more weapon classes or adding weapons to existing classes (Axe & Scythe, Sword & Dagger, Bow & Gun, Wands & Staffs, Hand to Hand & Clubs, Whips & Flails, etc) and each one can split off to a new path.

But what if you just do away with MRD, GLA, etc, names and instead name the classes after the weapon? So you would be a Sword Specialist and from there you can train to become a SAM (Great Katana), NIN (Katana), PLD (enhanced swords like Excalibur for example). Axe Specialist to become BST, VIK (or actual MRD), DRK, etc

I guess I'm probably thinking more along the lines of FF Tactics. I really did like the idea of having a variety of jobs around that can really make it diverse instead of having everyone the same type of job. To me more variety can make up some really unique party play where we can really express they style you want to play with the jobs you create.

I think that was also the thing I liked about FFXI, there were so many different jobs that could be played.

[Carpe]

Introducing a few more weapon classes or adding weapons to existing classes (Axe & Scythe, Sword & Dagger, Bow & Gun, Wands & Staffs, Hand to Hand & Clubs, Whips & Flails, etc) and each one can split off to a new path.

But what if you just do away with MRD, GLA, etc, names and instead name the classes after the weapon? So you would be a Sword Specialist and from there you can train to become a SAM (Great Katana), NIN (Katana), PLD (enhanced swords like Excalibur for example). Axe Specialist to become BST, VIK (or actual MRD), DRK, etc.

Yah, I think this Title/Weapon System leaves room for them adding more weapon classes in the future as well. They already seem to have plans for Musketeer and Arcanist (we got guilds for both in LL).

Musketeer -obviously would be your Gun weapon class.

Arcanist - I don't really know, but there is an Arcanist class in Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced 2 that uses rods as weapon and have spells like "Gravity"(Demi) and "Haste". So maybe they will be more of a like stat-based magic class.

Some new weapons I think would be too similar to existing weapon types so they should just be included in those weapon types as subtypes. (Great Sword = SWORD)

I'm totally for them re-translating the current classes (Gladiator, Lancer, Archer, etc.) and having them more literally be named after their weapon. (This is the way it's done in the original japanese, check out Cairdeas' post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Jobs-dev1033)

One thing I wonder if whether dagger really fits well into sword? Maybe this could be separated into a new weapon class in the future that could be general type for ninja weapons or similar.

I think they need to rethink the weapon abilities and really differentiate them more under some stronger themes. Like:

Sword = Accuracy/Damage Mitigation Buffs
Axe = Crit/Parry
Pug = Low-Stamina/Evasion

Those are just some quick examples, but more differentiation will eliminate some of the blandness associated with the weapon classes. Also it let's people further identify what someone's speciality is so you would know like a DRK/Sword is going for Accuracy/Consistent Damage and DRK/Axe is going for Random/Critical Damage. And it gives you more to think about when designing your character.