Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

[MagiusNecros]

If your definition is not "Keep aggro first, survive second and kill third", then you're not defining a tank.

Your definition doesn't define a tank at all either. A tank is all about taking massive amounts of damage no assistance required and being able to survive for extended periods of time which the only Tank I can see here in 4.0 is PLD. With high mitigation and high sustain.

A tank isn't defined by holding hate, a healer topping you off because you can't mitigate shit in the long run and never is a tank known for damage output.

[Reynhart]

Your definition doesn't define a tank at all either.

Yes, it does. Holding hate is the only thing that is 100% your job. No tank can survive on its own, so staying alive is also the responsibility of the healer.
Spamming only Storm's Path because it helps you heal and mitigates damage is a the first bad thing a WAR can do.

On a sidenote, I didn't say that a tank is only defined by holding hate, but by holding hate first. On that specific topic, risking losing hate to do more personal DPS is the the exact opposite of tanking.

[MagiusNecros]

Yes, it does. Holding hate is the only thing that is 100% your job.

You heard it here folks. Tanks don't need to tank. Only hold hate. :P

[aleph_null]

You heard it here folks. Tanks don't need to tank. Only hold hate. :P

You're quoting him out of context. He meant that aggro is 100% tank's job (I disagree, since we have shade, quelling, smoke, etc), not that your job is only to hold aggro. Survival comes with mitigation (tank's job mostly, with minor help from others like apoc, virus, adlo) and healing (healer's job mostly, with minor help from tanks' self heals), so it's not 100% tank's job.

[Reynhart]

You heard it here folks. Tanks don't need to tank. Only hold hate. :P

Why do I keep trying to make a point if you misunderstand such a basic sentence ?
Again, since it's the second time you're ignoring part of what I say just to make your point, a tank is :

"Keep aggro first, survive second and kill third"

Semantics.

It's not really semantics when you have to decide your priority.

(I disagree, since we have shade, quelling, smoke, etc)

So, if a PLD refuse to use Flash because he wants to spam Total Eclipse and big packs of mobs rush to the healer, it's partially the healer's fault ?

[aleph_null]

It's not really semantics when you have to decide your priority.

You're arguing my use of "optimal" and I simply corrected it. As I've said before optimality in a group is different from individual optimality. If you don't have a nin then the optimal group strat would be the war using unchained, but that's not the optimal rotation for a war. The lack of nin costs the war their ability to perform their optimal rotation.

Let's stop this argument here, I've said my thoughts on the matter. If sam requires higher tank stance uptime then I'll do it if I get a sam in my group. That's the best course of action for the group. But that doesn't change that if sam is the only job to require that, then that's their weakness compared to other jobs, just like how one of mnk's current weaknesses is their lack of aggro management (though it's overshadowed by the fact that mnk doesn't do much more dps than other dps jobs anyway).

So, if a PLD refuse to use Flash because he wants to spam Total Eclipse and big packs of mobs rush to the healer, it's partially the healer's fault ?

Not if the healer does what they can to prevent it, e.g. not casting regen mid pull. But there are cases where a tank's failure to keep aggro is due to someone else's fault. If a nin refuses to shade me at pull for no good reason then he's partially to blame if I lose aggro because I used my opener under the assumption that I'll get shade. If a whm uses medica2 and 2x cure3 for the first bomb aoe in a10s it's not my fault if the boss turns to them. If a blm refuses to use quelling during their opener it's not entirely my fault if I lose aggro 10s into the fight.

[Reynhart]

But that doesn't change that if sam is the only job to require that, then that's their weakness compared to other jobs

How can it be "their weakness" ? If a SAM requires much more tank stance than any other DPS, it means their also do much more damage, resulting in faster kills.

[aleph_null]

How can it be "their weakness" ? If a SAM requires much more tank stance than any other DPS, it means their also do much more damage, resulting in faster kills.

Because their dps comes at the cost of someone else's? I'm not saying sam's necessarily bad because of it. If the tanks' dps loss are so minor compared to their personal huge dps gain compared to other melees then sam might be in the optimal group composition.

It's the same way I'd consider drk's weakness in a7s being their lack of physical mitigation, which may cost healers' dps unless you're skipping a lot of things, but in the end their higher dps prevailed over pld's superior physical mitigation in speedkills, since you can skip a lot of things and the lack of physical mitigation doesn't become a big problem.