Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[ScorpiusO-Ra-E]

Don't know if anyone thought of this yet but what if they made it so WHM got a lilly every 8th or 12th regen tick (in total from the whole party.) The ticks would actually have to heal things and this allows better control of lily creation. I mean I'd also hope that they buff the duration reduction a bit but idk how effective it currently is. Idrk much about WHM, I really wanna play, but even I can tell their getting shafted and this update has all but ruined my motivation.

Either way that's my contribution to this whole kerfuffle.

[Lambdafish]

My feedback: Can we get a test realm please? If job changes are going to be like this, which they have been very much so throughout HW as well, I feel like we need a way to balance and filter changes using open test means.

[Reiryuu]

Don't know if anyone thought of this yet but what if they made it so WHM got a lilly every 8th or 12th regen tick (in total from the whole party.) The ticks would actually have to heal things and this allows better control of lily creation. I mean I'd also hope that they buff the duration reduction a bit but idk how effective it currently is. Idrk much about WHM, I really wanna play, but even I can tell their getting shafted and this update has all but ruined my motivation.

Either way that's my contribution to this whole kerfuffle.

The problem still persists. At this point: Why would you want lilies? Sure, reduced cooldowns are nice... I guess... but we're already getting reduced cooldowns from what we've been playing with... and it's still just a spear card on one ability for all your lilies. Doesn't seem worth it.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

it's still just a spear card on one ability for all your lilies. Doesn't seem worth it.

All in all, while the ways to get lilies is a problem, the main problem is that CD reduction as a mechanic is extremely boring and underwhelming.
While everyone got new toys to play with, we kept our same old stuff, but can use it slightly faster. Even having access to the CDs faster isn't technically a good thing. Healing doesn't require you to pop OGCDs as soon as they come up, you save them for either an emergency or a specific burst of damage.

Also just want to say, to the people thinking we're overreacting. We just don't want to be stuck with an underwhelming and boring job system for 2 years like MCH and Bard were. SE isn't perfect. Everyone can benefit from criticism.

[Tsunenori]

I feel like a lot of this thread and the community reaction to this has been nothing but a disappointing embarrassment. Half of the complaints are low-key begging for AST nerfs, and I don't even know how many are coming from players who parrot the first thing they hear about meta this and meta that like it's gospel.

What makes a class desirable right now, one week from expansion in content we overgear and have on farm in encounters that have been designed a certain way has no bearing on what will make a class desirable in content we're undergeared for, inexperienced with, and may be designed in a way that facilitates the strengths of one class over another. How many people trashed Dark Knight at the beginning of 3.0 before running into Magic Damage tank busters that they were needed for? On top of that, there's no reason for White Mage to be the "meta" pick for all time. There are 3 healers and two healer spots. As people begin to out-skill and overgear the content it's natural that WHM will phase out because people don't need its healing anymore.

I feel like the majority of these complaints are bubbling frustration from the AST overbuffs, with people acting like a raid environment where damage is the only thing that matters is somehow healthy and what we need to be striving to be competitive with as WHMs. This is, imo, a symptom of a much larger problem that's going to continue to get worse as time goes on as long as damage damage damage is all that matters to every class in all content. That's the bigger problem to get a handle on.

Are lillies/confessions counter-intuitive to the way WHM works? Somewhat. If someone is telling you they don't cast cures they're a liar, especially in progression content or undergeared content where regens alone get you killed. But regen effects are an undeniable part of our toolkit and as has been mentioned time and again it's bizarre that they don't give us a method of leaning into those more. Is CDR a terrible mechanic? No, absolutely not. Boring? Absolutely yes. Sometimes underwhelming? Sure. Unreliable? Maybe if you're not the kind of player who is able to adapt or plan.

The class is, on the whole, stronger in Stormblood if we pretend Lillies/Confessions don't exist at all than it is right now. While I'd love to see a more interesting mechanic in place and brand new toys to play with, this sky is falling rhetoric has to stop. As has been mentioned in here already, the players themselves are the ones creating this PR disaster for the class. We need more constructive feedback and less outright hysteria.

[Mahkii]

Mahkii, thank you for putting it in such an understandable way, been trying to get that point across for a week now. Your wording was just very clear /applaud.
Anyways, I don't thinks it's just tanks that aren't realizing this, but a decent chunk of WHMs here, this very simple point is probably going to skyrocket the value of Healer DMG/CS changes to WHM with how much not having to dance will permit weaving in OGCD healing, something that while convenient for SCHs and moreso ASTs, both lack the tools to benefit from it as healers. While WHMs are complaining about their heals being outclassed by the others, thats simply when you compare the GCD spells as you go from WHM to SCH to AST the amount of MP reqd GCDs needed to provide said healing goes up along with the amount of non-healing support provided. Tho even with ASTs cheaper Bene 1/2, and Helios costs, we cast all 3 more. (Aspected Helios costs the same as Succor, and Regen is cheaper than Aspected Benefic). SCH still loses the MP efficiency game tho, they cast more GCDs than WHM with less GCD tools thus making the options they have cost more since they replace multiple GCDs out of WHM/AST, and while they have more OGCD and MP free heals than AST 2 of them share an opportunity cost, and another assumes the right faerie is out or that the other faerie didnt use the same skill slot recently (Eos and Selene share CDs, keep that in mind, swiftcast switch wont get you both from the same petbar slot. ALSO this can be used as an arguement against counting SCH/SMN spet skills uniquely for button count, given that its always 4 skills usable, 1 GCD like 3 OGCDs, 4 buttons not 8-12).

For reference on MP costs of Healer GCDs:
WHM / SCH / AST
Cure I 442 / Physick 442 / Benefic 353
Cure II 884 / A2 / Benefic II 795
Cure III 1679 / X / X
Medica I 1237 / S2 / Helios 1060
Medica II 1592 / Succor 1326 / Aspected Helios 1326
Regen 618 / Adloquium 1060 / Aspected Benefic 787
Notes: A2 SCH Cure 2 slot is also filled by Adloq which costs almost 200MP more, and S2 the base AOE heal slot is also filled with Succor which 100-300 more mana than its competitors. And both do less actual healing than their competitors by at least halved which can only be regained on e every 30s

WHMs take a moment and consider which of your OGCD heals youd be willing to sacrifice for party DPS support? It'd be fair and balanced to sacrifice those for such tools, and fair and balanced seem to be what your claiming you want.

From a SCH main though, SCH already had more going for it than WHM in its toolkit (IMO). I understand that SCH is taking some cuts, but I'm not sure how that will tip balance. But if the SCH I've known and played can keep its Whispering Dawn and still have good single target damage and get Chain Stratagem, I'd think WHM could get something. It could be weaker than Chain Stratagem, but it still seems like they're missing something.

[javid]

For reference on MP costs of Healer GCDs:
WHM / SCH / AST
Cure I 442 / Physick 442 / Benefic 353
Cure II 884 / A2 / Benefic II 795
Cure III 1679 / X / X
Medica I 1237 / S2 / Helios 1060
Medica II 1592 / Succor 1326 / Aspected Helios 1326
Regen 618 / Adloquium 1060 / Aspected Benefic 787
Notes: A2 SCH Cure 2 slot is also filled by Adloq which costs almost 200MP more, and S2 the base AOE heal slot is also filled with Succor which 100-300 more mana than its competitors. And both do less actual healing than their competitors by at least halved which can only be regained on e every 30s

WHMs take a moment and consider which of your OGCD heals youd be willing to sacrifice for party DPS support? It'd be fair and balanced to sacrifice those for such tools, and fair and balanced seem to be what your claiming you want.

You know we like to have our cake and eat it too But on your list you should put Embrace in the regen/aspect benefic row, instead of aldo. Embrace/3sec is the strongest HoT and most efficient single target HoT in game! AND ITS NOT SUBJECT to the Sch's cleric stance healing penalty....... I'm happy they nerfing it though.

Also for your analysis even though SCH and AST use more mp/potency, both of them regen more MP faster than whm....so the comparison may be a wash

[Kacho_Nacho]

Oh you mean overhealing, hate generating, mp draining healing? Sounds quite lovely.

Oh, please. If you are paying attention, and not just hitting buttons automatically, you can manage your overhealing, hate, and mana.

[Reiryuu]

snip

There has been a lot of constructive and reasoned arguments throughout this thread with evidence to back it up. Please stop dismissing that for us screaming that the sky is falling before reading some of it, will you? There is not one WHM in this entire thread that has said they don't cast cures. But can you tell me that the only 2 spells you cast to heal your party are cure I and cure II? There is not one WHM in this thread that said every single group has to have a WHM in raiding. But why bring a WHM when you can have AST and SCH with Chain Strategem, The Balance, and lose no healing power? If you have an answer for that question, please, let's hear it. People have been seeing groups exclude WHMs already and even the Japanese player base is upset with the changes and saying some rather unflattering things about white mages in their currently proposed state. If we don't complain now and point out what we see as missteps from SE, how will they know what they need to improve? SE has made mistakes before and the changes to BRD and MCH are evidence of that.

And I'm not trying to sound agressive here. Just please, try to see our arguments before you just brush them aside.

[Acidblood]

If you get kicked from a DF or RF party just because you play an "out of meta" job, they are stupid and you dont want to play with stupid people.

so, please if you think "ho shit...WHM is really bad because WHM will be out of meta..." stop posting here, think about what means meta.

While I agree, the issue in the case of WHM is that they have absolutely no defence against this... for example, as a MNK, you may not be 'meta', but if you're a good player you can still bring great personal DPS, and as a PLD, you may not be 'meta', but if you're a good player you can still hold aggro and use cooldowns at the right time (assuming no excessive magic damage), but as a WHM, beyond covering the requisite healing, which any decent AST / SCH can do equally well enough, all you can do is throw stones, which any decent AST / SCH can not only do just as well, but greatly exceed with their party utility buffs... and the 4.0 changes to WHM, 100% Cure II chance or not, do very little, if anything at all, to fix this.

Also regarding the 100% Cure II thing; I do not take this as good news, as not only does this mean the Devs are continuing down the path of this flawed Lily system, but also that they seem to think the main issue is with the Proc rate :/ ... I guess we’ll find out in a few days, but short of some truly miraculous improvements my WHM will be benched for SB.