Samurai Discussion

[KrazyBean94]

So would this opener change if you're the only one applying the slashing debuff (PLD/DRK composition for example)?

Will you prioritise Yukikaze first?

[Sai-Kon]

So would this opener change if you're the only one applying the slashing debuff (PLD/DRK composition for example)?

Will you prioritise Yukikaze first?

For better or worse, yes. The 3-1-2 combo (3. Hakaze-Yukikaze, 1.Jinpu-Gekko 2.Shifu-Kasha) yields slightly more potency/time when you don't have WAR to apply Maim for you. The difference is very minuscule but if we want to min-max everything you take it into account. Of course, when you have WAR that applies Slashing Debuff for you, the difference in potency/time becomes noticeable.

[KennyRedsteele]

For better or worse, yes. The 3-1-2 combo (3. Hakaze-Yukikaze, 1.Jinpu-Gekko 2.Shifu-Kasha) yields slightly more potency/time when you don't have WAR to apply Maim for you. The difference is very minuscule but if we want to min-max everything you take it into account. Of course, when you have WAR that applies Slashing Debuff for you, the difference in potency/time becomes noticeable.

Ok so we use Hagakure with 1 Sen, and I Simulated a lot of situations to find a better solution but couldn't find one :P
I read that Hagakure would be a dps loss if we arent using it with 3 Sen and now I see a good solution with 1 Sen
And how about the rotation with Hagakure?
Sorry for my bad english

[Tsilyi]

Ok so we use Hagakure with 1 Sen, and I Simulated a lot of situations to find a better solution but couldn't find one :P
I read that Hagakure would be a dps loss if we arent using it with 3 Sen and now I see a good solution with 1 Sen
And how about the rotation with Hagakure?
Sorry for my bad english

I must have missed this hagakure with one sen. When would you do that? I haven't seen any openers that contained this yet unless I'm blind. Do you mean Higanbana (which can only be cast with one sen)?

[Sai-Kon]

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

[Sai-Kon]

Overall, that means that there is no realistic benefit from spending 3 Sen on Hagakure at all. I will try to calculate if there is any value/use to it. Important note: All the theorycrafting here is based on what we know. There is always the possibility that there might be potential changes during release and Hagakure become more valuable or Midare less potent. In the light of all the things mentioned above, the rotation I posted earlier, while still good, it probably isn't very efficient either because apparently Hagakure isn't as efficient as alternative options. I will start on a new simulation and this time I will only post here when I get final results of the most optimized rotation, which takes into account everything, not before.

[Greywolfamakir]

I re-calculated efficiency of Hagakure and found out that in the end Hagakure is not worth the 3 Sen you spent on it, contrary to what the post on reddit claimed. When you consume all 3 Sens for 1x Hagakure, you get 720 potency out of it. That equals to 1x Midare Setsugekka. The only benefit of Hagakure is 1 weaponskill because Midare Setsugekka requires 1 GCD while Hagakure doesn't. The one GCD you cast after the combo is Hakaze which equals to 5 Kenki. 5 Kenki equals to 60 potency. So by using Hagakure you only benefit by 60 potency. But this benefit is when you cast Midare Setsugekka alone.

When you buff Midare Setsugekka with Kaiten, you get +360 potency benefit, which is an actual +120 potency benefit over Shinten for that cost. Substracting the earlier +60 potency benefit you got from 1 Hagakure equals +60 potency benefit in favor of Kaiten. In other words, every time you cast Kaiten + Midare you yield 60 more potency than Hagakure.

You are wrong again...You forget that Kaiten costs 20 Kenki.

Long Example:
1 complete rotation potency:
150 * 3 = 450. (Hakaze)
450 + 340 = 790 (Yukikaze)
790 + 280 = 1070 (Jumpu)
1070 + 400 = 1470 (Gekko)
1470 + 280 = 1750 (Shifu)
1750 + 400 = 2150 (Kasha)
8 GCDs = 2150 potency + 55 Kenki.

Now we have 2 options:

Hagakure
With Hagakure we will have 115 kenki (Max Kenki is 100, i know, but its no relevant here) with 8 GCDs, then.
Shinten kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
115 kenki * 12 = 1380 potency from kenki. Total Potency = 1260 + 2150 = 3530 Potency with 8 GCDs.
3530 / 8 = 441.25 Potency per GCD

Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten
With Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten we will have 35 kenki (35 - 20)
Shinten Kenki Ratio = 12 (300 / 25 = 12)
35 Kenki * 12 = 420 potency from kenki
Midare Setsugekka + Kenki = 1080 potency. Total Potency = 1080 + 420 + 2150 = 3650 potency with 9 GCDs.
3650 / 9 = 405.55 Potency per GCD
.
tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

[Sai-Kon]

tl;dr:Hagakure is better than Midare Setsugekka in terms of potency.

Don't try so hard to sound smart, it's not. You should compare equal things, not 8 GCDs to 9. If you add one Hakaze to the Hagakure calculations so that the comparison is between equal things (9 GCDs in the current context), you will notice that it turns out that Hagakure calculation you did there gives 408.88 potency. This is a mere 3 potency difference than the Kaiten + Midare rotation, however, the math here is on a theoretical spectrum and does not take into account that Midare will be cast while either Trick Attack or Battle Litany is still up and will fully benefit from that, while not all 3 Shinten you get from Hagakure benefit from raid cooldowns because it requires a bigger span to spend the Kenki on Shinten (between 2-3 GCD), which renders Kaiten+Midare not only better but also way simpler to manage in a pragmatic scenario. Your math doesn't take into account that any downtime during fight where you don't use Hagakure right off the bat when it comes off cooldown due to mechanics will result in Hagakure losing value and hence DPS loss, so over the span of a fight Hagakure rotation will end up losing more value. Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

[Greywolfamakir]

Next time think more before you try to copy-paste calculations without looking at the whole picture.

I didn't copy-paste nothing else out of me, I did that maths, they are mine, they are right. I know you dont like it, Midare Setsugekka is really cool and you want that Midare Setsugekka be better than Hagakure, but im sorry, Hagakure is better.

9 GCDs: Hagakure = 415.5 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten= 405.55 p/GCD
10 GCDs: Hagakure = 408 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 386 p/GCD
11 GCDs: Hagakure = 418.18 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 381.81 p/GCD
12 GCDs: Hagakure = 400.8 p/GCD Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten = 393.33 p/GCD

I can reach 500 GCDs but it wont change the result...

About Trick Attack...Litany...etc, you can spend 60 kenki during buff window easy, if you cant, use Midare Setsugekka or learn how to spend 60 Kenki faster.

Hagakure has 40 seconds CD, its a really good DPS CD, I understand that its less cool than Midare Setsugekka, i agree, i dont like Hagakure indeed, but its not about what i like it about potency and math.

In fact, Samurai just has 3 DPS CDs, Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren. When you dont have Hagakure, Meikyo Sishui and Guren you'll do normal rotation with Midare Setsugekka + Kaiten