How much WHM DPS is enough?

[Kethic]

It may come close (assuming they had regular chances to just stand around and do DPS*), but it would also make them seriously OP in all other content (open world, dungeons, PotD, Aquaplois), so it's not really a solution. So no, the only way to truly 'balance*' the healers, for ALL content, is to give all of them comparable healing power, similar DPS potential, and unique utility; this way they can all cover their primary role, can all kill things in a reasonable time, and can all offer an 'interesting choice' (as you put it) when it comes to group compositions.

* Even a single target balance offers +20% for 30 seconds, meaning that any WHM would have to find at least 30 * 0.2 = 6 seconds to do nothing but DPS for each balance an AST draws, and longer for Extended / Expanded Balance.

* Note: This does not mean all healers need to be the same, or that one won't be marginally better for a specific encounter than another, it simply means that there needs to be an actual choice; unlike now where you lose nothing by taking an AST over a WHM.

Interesting that you phrase it that way. I believe the changes to Cleric Stance and Aero gave WHM back 4-5 GCDs per minute, which would amount to about the same. Not sure it's an accurate measure though.

Let's play with Alex Creator Savage parse numbers... 2500-3000dps seems to be the top range? So I think 10k is a reasonable estimate for 4 dps? 10k * 20% * half a minute = 1kdps sustained needed from WHM to make up for the loss of a Balance.

It gets a little trickier trying to find a WHM in a top clear time, but at #25 you can find a WHM doing 2400dps. Worth noting that the AST also did 1900dps.
Even if you scrub the influence of balance from the numbers, it's well above the 1k threshold. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/BM3RD...pe=damage-done

So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back. It doesn't change that Lily's and Confessions are likely to be almost entirely ignored.

[Shurrikhan]

It gets a little trickier trying to find a WHM in a top clear time, but at #25 you can find a WHM doing 2400dps. Worth noting that the AST also did 1900dps.
Even if you scrub the influence of balance from the numbers, it's well above the 1k threshold. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/BM3RD...pe=damage-done

So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back.

If only people looked at the Monk "issue" as even-handedly...
...and if Monk hadn't been nerfed to such an extent as to now trail in personal dps, given latest tooltips, all excused in the name of adding particularly slipshod RNG mechanics and the lowest-value raid DPS contributor yet (.83% over time).

Everyone accepts that above a certain party DPS threshold, x personal DPS gain may be inferior to y party dps modifier bonuses. Yet few seem to acknowledge the opposite. So long as the particularly high DPS scales at the same rate as the party average, balance is entirely possible. The only issue is that the personal DPS gains that are balanced against raid modifiers in an 8-man will be relatively stronger in party sizes of less than 8, such as dungeon or solo content. Not that there's a Savage mode for any light party content anyways...

[Kethic]

Snip

I'll be honest; I'm afraid all this attention is going to result in a WHM nerf once the actual dps numbers start to come in. If they change our mechanics, we're going to have to pay for it somewhere, and dps is all we have left.

[DreamWeaver]

etc etc....
So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back. It doesn't change that Lily's and Confessions are likely to be almost entirely ignored.

I'm sorry but that's not how you do a comparison,

The WHM have to bring ADDITIONAL DPS to offset the Balance effect, you can't just say "Yup Balance brings an extra XXX dps, as long WHM deals above XXX, WHM is better!!".

Don't forget the bringer of Balance, the AST, is also doing damage, so in order for WHM to be better than AST with Balance, the dps of the WHM have to be higher than the AST's damage + Balance dps combined.

In your case, the WHM is higher than the AST by 500, but your math states Balance brings an additional 1k dps (I'm pretty sure this is incorrect), so bringing the WHM still results in a net 500 dps loss.

Napkin math for Balance:

Assuming the best case scenario of a lucky god for easy calculation:
AoE balance of 40 seconds every 2 minutes (due to Celestial Opposition).
Means a balance uptime of 33%.

33% of 10% damage increase = 3.33% overall raid dps increase.

So let's say a group's rDPS is 15000, the balance provided an additional of 15000*0.033 =approx 500 dps.

[Kethic]

snip

yeah, i realized the flaw right before bed. i'll re-poke the numbers today.

[winsock]

I think if you give WHM the DPS of a DPS, you risk replacing DPS. The SCH approach might work: increase WHM healing potential while in full DPS rotation.

Imagine if Regen got a potency buff, could generate lilies on HP restoral / reduce cds / give confession (similar to cure in SB), and could be used off gcd similar to the way energy drain's CD works. Then, buff lily CD reduction to be a bit more meaningful​

WHM would be a monster, having a substantial aptitude for delivering healing without halting it's DPS. I could see a WHM/NAST combo working very well, where WHM DPSes and helps fill the NASTs hps. SCH / WHM could be a decent option as well, as both classes could push substantial DPS and healing/mitigation at the same time w/o worrying about balance rng.

[Kethic]

Looking at 3.x numbers, WHM frequently approached the average sustained dps of a DPS when they tried. I agree it would be OP in DF, but if that's already the status quo, and we're not getting any other utility, seems rude to break the trend.

[Almagnus1]

I think if you give WHM the DPS of a DPS, you risk replacing DPS. The SCH approach might work: increase WHM healing potential while in full DPS rotation.

Imagine if Regen got a potency buff, could generate lilies on HP restoral / reduce cds / give confession (similar to cure in SB), and could be used off gcd similar to the way energy drain's CD works. Then, buff lily CD reduction to be a bit more meaningful​

WHM would be a monster, having a substantial aptitude for delivering healing without halting it's DPS. I could see a WHM/NAST combo working very well, where WHM DPSes and helps fill the NASTs hps. SCH / WHM could be a decent option as well, as both classes could push substantial DPS and healing/mitigation at the same time w/o worrying about balance rng.

That's actually more of an argument for why WHM needs to have a buff unique to WHM (Presence of Mind or Cleric Stance as a group skill?) so it's on par with the other two classes.