In defense of WHM 4.0

[Transient_Shadow]

I only have one request for those thinking of quitting the game over this. Please just give it a try first. This is literally nothing but conjecture. They're still tweaking the system right now. We don't know what the final product will be.

[javid]

For once, this conversation has virtually nothing to do with DPS.

Healing by spamming Cure spells generally is the wrong way to go about it. Efficient WHMs leverage HoTs and abilities to do the bulk of their healing and judiciously apply Cures as necessary. The lily system, working on a % proc chance and only for Cure and Cure II, does not fit well with what skilled healers practice.

CONTENT DICTATES EFFICIENCY OF ALL GAME UTILITIES.............CONTENT DIC- I say this every new thread and ppl go off the handle with their skill comparison in a vacuum........ until we know the type of savage content that will test these utilities we can't be certain of any utility efficiency.

Let's use A1S; before we got sufficient gear upgrade (even when we had top tier ilv gear), you could not regen the prey targets to life; if you didn't cast several cures 1/2 (at progression gear) or one or two big cures at that current max ilv; the missile prey targets would die!!!

PAST SAVAGE CONTENT

How nice would it have been while you spamming cures to counter the incoming rapid missile dmg the prey target was taking; you had a chance to get a confession on the target that would give you the benefit of skipping a healing gcd? And what if you got lucky and got a confession on both prey targets if you're responsible for healing both? You now just skipped two healing gcds. Another A1S example of needing instant heals! The tanks after the adds drop (the party for that matter) had to eat quadruple aoe dmg and frontal cleaves and autos; meanwhile two targets have prey and need dedicated healing like before, then right after you finish healing the two prey targets, you had to make sure the MT/OT (which ever you're responsible for) had sufficient HP/shields for he incoming Tankbuster which hit for 25k unmitigated. So again..... image at progression lvl or even at that current max ilv the EASSSSE it would provide if you got a confession on the tank? or even better your tank and your prey target?? Imagine the having tetragram and assize and holy bension all losing 5 sec of their recast during that sequence simply b/c you had to cure 1/2 spam? Imagine executing 2-3 lilies on one of your CD and having that ability show up ready for the second wave of the same thing? As SCH (ast was borderline shitty at that point), the set of utilities you used the first wave WERE NOTTTT gonna all be ready for the second wave (maybe most of them would be back by the 3rd). These whm abilities are extremely short recast; making them (in theory) more dependable throughout a heavy dmg raid content.

LET CONTENT BE THE JUDGE ...
CONTENT.....CONTENT!!!!!!!! will expose/reveal the efficiency of all the utilities in game.....doing these comparison we do in a vacuum is only so useful; content may render a skill that appears to be SUPERB in a vacuum into being useless; or a skill that looks shitty in a vacuum outshines all the rest in content; or it may also reveal what we mostly fear too-- that a skill that looks shitty in a vacuum is still shitty in the content provided!!

Either way we need content to make a complete assessment. "But I know SE's track record!! And they ...blah blah blah....." Yes I know you prophets know SE in and out, but the rest of us can't see into the future you see so clearly....so the rest of us need content to properly establish utility efficiency.

[Cynfael]

Snip

I appreciate the effort you put into that reply, but nothing about it changes the fact that Cure spamming isn't a desirable WHM play style. Even the examples you provided illustrate options for very specific situations, not any kind of universal best practice.

Generally I do prefer to wait and see, but in this case it's fair and appropriate to express doubt. An RNG Job mechanic that depends on two single-target healing spells out of the considerable WHM repertoire? That alone is cause for some concern, even if SB content somehow does depend inordinately on frequent single-target, hard-cast heals (unlikely).

[Feidam]

I appreciate the effort you put into that reply, but nothing about it changes the fact that Cure spamming isn't a desirable WHM play style. Even the examples you provided illustrate options for very specific situations, not any kind of universal best practice.

A lot of folks are wanting the lillies to proc of of regents and I think that would be too much. But if they let me proc of medica/medica2 heal portion for say 20% proc rate and increase the single rate a bit, it might be a decent system allowing you to use assize or asylum more frequently. Allowing them to proc of a regen heal is just too much though. They'd be nothing to generate. Also, the new conte t could be such that cure and cure 2 are more desirable. We just don't know at this point.

[javid]

snip.

Of course all form of efficiency is to minimize sustain GCDs while increasing overall dps.... But like the example I gave, the CONTENT dictates what form your efficiency will take, " how many cures can you skip? is regen enough? etc etc."

Cure spamming is a poor practice on the basis that it's excessive!! Cure spamming isnt at all poor general practice if its mandated-which would make it in this case most optimal!! Again Content.......

This new content may force instant heals to be a thing without having to increase overall dmg. Example is a mini boss like Faust which doesn't really have a TANKBUSTER but the frequency at which he outputs dmg is so high that at progression levels you can't just regen and shield.

If anything the whm system lends itself well to reducing your instant gcd heal spams. Something both ast and sch can't consistently do with their respectively longer cds and passive traits. Basically if content demands cure spams nobody will do it better than whm!

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Tbh, lillies are just a spear card from AST with a bit reduction and way less effectivity.

Spear is 10-15% reduction on ALL spells for 30-70s (self), and you have about (draw + redraw) 1/3 chances of getting it every 30s

3 lillies is 20% reduction colldown on ONE capacity between 4, and, if you spam cure/cure II 10 times (30s of gcd), you have 20.1326592% chance of having 3 lillies for the next gcd.

nothing much more to say about it...

[javid]

Generally I do prefer to wait and see, but in this case it's fair and appropriate to express doubt. An RNG Job mechanic that depends on two single-target healing spells out of the considerable WHM repertoire? That alone is cause for some concern, even if SB content somehow does depend inordinately on frequent single-target, hard-cast heals (unlikely).

The whole raid content doesn't need to be always single target heavy healing. There can be sufficient sequences throughout the raid content that lends well to WHM cure spams; as oppose to SCH/AST instant heal spamming. In those instances WHM's sustain will outshine the other two and provide sustain reliability over the other two jobs and potentially translate into increase reliable dps.

Again current content Creator savage (besides the one example of faust) did not mandate any such sequence (except a12s tankbuster sequence also). So the community having creator presently in mind forget the cures spam mandate of gordias (and the few spams during midas).

[javid]

snip

....If spear could be drawn reliably and wasn't competing with party balance then sure; spear could most definitely be favored over lilies!!! HOwever spear will be a "luck of the draw card" (or bad luck of the draw) that you end up with after you've already redrawn hoping for your balance spread combo.

Meanwhile lilies is dedicated recast reduction on the skills u mentioned and the same cures that sprout lilies are the same skill that directly reduce each of those CD by 5 sec if a special condition is met. So that means Lilies and direct 5 sec recast are always in some kind of an effect (ASSUMINGG THE CONTENT DEMANDS MORE CURE SPAMS......that's where all this will be made or broken.....CONTENT). Moral of the story, if Cure spamming is content mandated lilies and the passive ability to reduce 5 sec off all listed CD will by far be more reliable than an AST spear card that has to compete with Party Balance and is more RNG than lilies.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

as i said, even if you fully spam cure or cure II, you will still have a better chance of drawing spear than having 3 lillies up. and the effect of the lillies is only about one capacity (between 4), while the spear affect all for a long duration (you may even skip one and still have the effect of the last one on).

The problem is that balance is way more desirable. But if you compare spear to lillies, spear proc often than having full lillies every 30s.

[javid]

as i said, even if you fully spam cure or cure II, you will still have a better chance of drawing spear than having 3 lillies up. and the effect of the lillies is only about one capacity (between 4), while the spear affect all for a long duration (you may even skip one and still have the effect of the last one on).

The problem is that balance is way more desirable. But if you compare spear to lillies, spear proc often than having full lillies every 30s.

I started off by saying.... one on one spear >> lilies...... but such a comparison is useless bc its not a one on one. ITs a balance takes priority always vs lilies + each cast getting 5 sec reduction with cure's passive trait. That's the real comparison that matters. It would actually be broken! if lillies 20% single CD reduction chances + cure's passive 5 sec reduction trait were evenly comparable to an AST actually attempting to roll a spear every time.....


EDIT
ACTUALLY........ lilies alone 20% reduction has a virtually equivalent probability of occurring for one CD compared to an AST actively attempting roll a spear over a span of 10 cure gcds (recast of 2.0-2.5 would mean a 20-25 sec window which is shorter than the recast of draw/redraw).

getting 3 lilies in 10 gcds at 20% chance of success is 32%
Getting 1 specific card over two attempts (while in the case of first failure removing the unwanted card from the deck) is 36%

Again YESSSS spear covers all CDs!!! liles only covers the one skill activated. But the above still applies (cure has additional passive trait that reduces all listed cds by 5 sec under special conditions; and balance will always always always take priority)

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?...of+10+at+20%25