Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[LadyKairi]

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Then you're obviously not reading what I was, because they never said people were ignorant, they were being called ignorant by others. Their post was related to the topic. You people are talking about what you think is wrong with whm and what it needs to be meta rather than just viable. They stated their opinion on the matter. I don't understand what you're missing. No one is saying whm needs an overhaul? Then you're not reading what people are saying, because I've seen it lol.

[Yorumi]

Then you're obviously not reading what I was, because they never said people were ignorant, they were being called ignorant by others. Their post was related to the topic. You people are talking about what you think is wrong with whm and what it needs to be meta rather than just viable. They stated their opinion on the matter. I don't understand what you're missing. No one is saying whm needs an overhaul? Then you're not reading what people are saying, because I've seen it lol.

The poster quoted someone and immediately started with the circle of ignorance. Whether you name someone specifically or not saying that is calling someone ignorant. Then proceeds to call people "wannabes" for not being in some arbitrary made up percent. Not to mention the first post calling people sheep for again not being in this made up arbitrary percent. Oh and then speaking of the suggestion of an overhaul I said: "If it has been suggested it's certainly not a popular or common suggestion." So maybe before you start accusing people of not reading you should yourself make sure you carefully read posts.

An imbalance that can be corrected with number tuning instead of bring other classes up to the same level which people seem to deem as overpowered. And no stating a white Mage can meet the cutoffs set forth by the developers and complete content is not a cop out. It just does not fit with your current narrative of the whm needing buffs through gaining extra utility to equal something that is above where it should be.

Well of course you could take away all buffs from ast and sch. But that's a bit silly. Also balance does not mean purely "can complete content" balance means two equal forces. This doesn't mean all skills are just renamed versions of the same thing, but it means when measured the weight of the contribution of each healer should be equal.

[Feidam]

Well of course you could take away all buffs from ast and sch. But that's a bit silly. Also balance does not mean purely "can complete content" balance means two equal forces. This doesn't mean all skills are just renamed versions of the same thing, but it means when measured the weight of the contribution of each healer should be equal.

Wow. I never said remove the buffs from anyone. It does not have to be an all or none response. Completely removing the buffs is a bit over board. Also, thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

my personal hope is that the white mage would get more assize style abilities that dps and heal simultaneously. granted assize will probably take a bit of nerf now that the cleric stance isn't a thing anymore. It still would give the whitemage an interesting play style imo while doing two things at once.

[Yorumi]

Wow. I never said remove the buffs from anyone. It does not have to be an all or none response. Completely removing the buffs is a bit over board. Also, thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

I was using a bit of hyperbole to make a point. I'm going to focus entirely on AST for now but most of it applies to sch too. As long as AST can buff the party and heal the content there's going to be no reason to pick a whm who can't do a part of that. Even if you reduce the most ironically named card(balance) AST is still just a whm with buffs and out of balance. Hence remove all their buffs.

Of course there are other interesting ways you could balance this. Whms traditionally have been able to inflict moderate damage in FF games. In FF1, while no damage dealer a whm's hammer shouldn't be under estimated. They've always had holy, in ff9 for example Eiko was easily on par with vivi for damage dealing once she got holy(i'm ignoring summers cause well, that's a summoner thing). So given that you could of course neft AST heals to the point that they seriously struggle to heal and have to spend most of the fight not DPSing. Whm on the other hand has large heals which afford them time to do a lot of dpsing. The balance comes then from AST cards, the whm does direct damage and the AST makes up for their lack of personal dps through indirect damage(party buffs).

The point is balance should be achieved by looking at overall party contribution, not just HPS. Increased HPS is of not real value if it's not improving party contribution.

[Xylas]

I was using a bit of hyperbole to make a point. I'm going to focus entirely on AST for now but most of it applies to sch too. As long as AST can buff the party and heal the content there's going to be no reason to pick a whm who can't do a part of that. Even if you reduce the most ironically named card(balance) AST is still just a whm with buffs and out of balance. Hence remove all their buffs.

Of course there are other interesting ways you could balance this. Whms traditionally have been able to inflict moderate damage in FF games.

In your honest opinion, do you believe that White Mages will be turned down and people will wait for other healers because of this? Or that people will not play White Mage in 4.0? I'm not being snarky, I'm actually curious of what you think.

[Yorumi]

In your honest opinion, do you believe that White Mages will be turned down and people will wait for other healers because of this? Or that people will not play White Mage in 4.0? I'm not being snarky, I'm actually curious of what you think.

There's a lot to look at really. Anything below the current ilevel ex primals is trivial content and balancing classes kind of doesn't matter. Maybe the normal mode 8-man raid matters as I remember people having trouble with alex normal at times. So in that sense people will play it regardless for that content. For content where balance starts to matter, yeah you'll start seeing party finders and shouts saying no whm. If this were a game where you couldn't switch jobs at will you'd probably see a lot fewer whms. Since people can effectively have a "raid" healer and a "casual" healer on one character it keeps numbers up.

You could in theory tune the balance card so low that most people wouldn't care to exclude whms, though I'd never suggest that cause it just turns AST into a recolored whm and that's dumb. I mean just personally I didn't seriously play whm or pld due to their lack of desirability.

No offense but you can not look to a single player game and use it's concept of a character to use in an mmo.

I'm using those games to show the conceptual design behind classes. Single player games still adhere to some balance, though obviously they can get away with far more imbalance than mmos(ie I'd never suggest a whm actually have the dps power of a blm). An AST cannot have healing nearly equal to a whm and buffs something has to give. If you nerf buffs to the point of not having them why have them at all? I was mostly just exploring alternative ways they could balance classes, they can give whm some sort of buff spells to equal up to AST buffs, or the could use my alternate or some of the alternate I havn't conceived of. The idea behind nerfing healing was to force AST to spent most of their time healing, leaving little time for personal dps, the compensation for that is their buffs and their dps contribution is what the party does thanks to their buffs. Whm would then be more balanced because their powerful healing would mean they could spend more time dpsing(something not out of place for whms traditionally) and thus their damage contribution is direct.

Essentially AST and SCH has healing + utility, whm has healing. That means to balance things we either have to give whm utility, or nerf one or both aspects of AST and SCH.

[Xylas]

There's a lot to look at really. Anything below the current ilevel ex primals is trivial content and balancing classes kind of doesn't matter. Maybe the normal mode 8-man raid matters as I remember people having trouble with alex normal at times. So in that sense people will play it regardless for that content. For content where balance starts to matter, yeah you'll start seeing party finders and shouts saying no whm. If this were a game where you couldn't switch jobs at will you'd probably see a lot fewer whms. Since people can effectively have a "raid" healer and a "casual" healer on one character it keeps numbers up.

Do we have any speculation on what that shiny buff was that she threw on the black mage? Or what that watery looking effect was? Seemed to be another buff, but looked like it was a self buff.

[Feidam]

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No offense but you can not look to a single player game and use it's concept of a character to use in an mmo. The two game styles require different approaches. Second hyperbole is not actually all that conducive to constructive discussions as it usually just derails the point you are trying to make.

Why do you have to nerf the astologian healing? The buffing of the astrologian can be tuned such that it compares to what a white mage and scholar can output offensively. I'm also curious as to what "buffs" you think the scholar really has going for it. I can think of two. Both of which were never a major problem prior. it just seems like you want the white mage to be a changed from what the developers has set as it's identity. While I'm not opposed to this in the slightest it doesn't have to be just a buffer as well. This is of course assuming the expansion has already rebalanced everything.