A PSA to all concerned tanks

[whiteblade89]

As long as DRK doesn't lose Blood Price or Carve and Spit, I'll be pretty happy. I can get over the whole low blow/reprisal thing. Even IF sb turns out to be the meta where drk happens to be "unwanted" I'm still most likely going to play it. It's the funnest tank, imo.

[Lyth]

...

We'll see what they do. I think it will depend in part on how effective Tenacity is. I still think the role will be fun to play, regardless. I do think the concerns are worth bringing up, though.

Which is a flawed standpoint. More DpS is only better when the gain in dps increases your survival chance (i.e. lets you pass a dps check, push so a phase skip happens or makes the difference between hitting and not hitting a hard enrage), but is useless when the barrier to completion is tied to the tank surviving an attack/series of attacks.

Having enough DpS to clear a fight at 6 minutes is meaningless when you die at 5 minutes just like being able to survive 8 minutes is meaning when you need dps to pass a dps check at 7 minutes.

Also isn't it worse to get an Int drop when you have no Int users? (same for Dex and Str) Getting an Vit drop will be useful to all comps unless they have already gotten 2 of that drop.

Gear gates aren't great design in general, but a eHP-based gear gate is worse than a dps one, because you can't cross-compensate. You're playing one in four odds until your tank gets the drops they need to allow your group to progress.

The issue isn't whether or not Tank accessories should improve your eHP. They're going to do that regardless. It's a question of whether tank enmity and dps should also improve with getting higher tier accessories, as they have been, albeit weakly, for the past two raid tiers.

Also, according to the letter from the Producer Live XXXV (the one before the most recent one), there's a proposed change to drops in which you're guaranteed a drop for one of your participating jobs. So gearing up should be simpler, and it addresses the issue of getting drops outside of your raid comp. It doesn't address the issue of tank accessory drops being significantly worse than a dps or potentially even healer drop (seeing as their dps now scales with MND). You should get a meaningful sense of improvement with each tier of gear.

[Rawrz]

Tanks are worried about dps, when healers are going to fall further behind than the tanks come stormblood. (DPS Ceiling nerf to cleric stance, Loss of virus, loss of spammable Blizzard II aoe for SCH, loss of Aero for SCH.) Let's cry together in stormblood as we begin our new paths as SAM/RDM mains.

[Fernosaur]

If Tank accessories don't contribute to DPS save for substats, we might be seeing BiS builds with pentamelded crafted accs more often than the full IL ones. This ofc unless the additional Vit is absolutely necessary to survive an eHP check, but that seems unlikely? With how many mitigation tools are being spread out among the DPS classes plus healer barriers, I find it implausible that tank eHP would be a gated threshold.

Tanks are worried about dps, when healers are going to fall further behind than the tanks come stormblood. (DPS Ceiling nerf to cleric stance, Loss of virus, loss of spammable Blizzard II aoe for SCH, loss of Aero for SCH.) Let's cry together in stormblood as we begin our new paths as SAM/RDM mains.

Loss of spammable AoE? Do you mean Blizzard II? Cause if Holy and Gravity are going away I foresee a lot of good healers never doing dungeons again :'D

Also, I was concerned about Aero for SCH too, but now that we're (likely) getting Broil II, it is very likely that Aero's potency would be a DPS loss in comparison, so I'm not too concerned about it. Of course, Aero + Energy Drain would still likely be a DPS gain, but that'd be a marginal increase in potency compared to Broil II, I'd like to believe.

[Edewen]

calm the hell down.

Look at this as a good thing. Making ap scale from vit was an experiment. A failed one because people still chose str accessories based on what had parry to avoid.
Step 1. Force the vit accessories.
Step 2. revert to str only scaling
Step 3. replace parry and accuracy with tenacity increasing damage there
Step 4. balance it.

You do not have all the info yet. You have no idea how the end product will turn out. So chill the hell out. Stop comparing your tank dps to damage dealers. Compare to other tanks. Instead of hoping for big numbers, hope for balance while maintaining the ability to stance dance at higher skill levels.

[jazzcatte]

You do not have all the info yet. You have no idea how the end product will turn out. So chill the hell out. Stop comparing your tank dps to damage dealers. Compare to other tanks. Instead of hoping for big numbers, hope for balance while maintaining the ability to stance dance at higher skill levels.

They're disincentivizing stance dancing as well, though, or did you miss that it now costs resources to do so (at least on war/pld, drk doesn't seem to spend resources for grit iirc).

We don't have the info yet, and it's possible that we're all mistaken and tanks are gonna be great, but from what we've seen it doesn't look like a really great change and I think people are within their rights to be worried.

[EusisLandale]

They're disincentivizing stance dancing as well, though, or did you miss that it now costs resources to do so (at least on war/pld, drk doesn't seem to spend resources for grit iirc).

Unless things change, Dark Knight spends 20% MP going into Grit. Unless they're dropping MP costs on Dark Knight skills it's still a pretty heavy resource cost.

[Acidblood]

You're 100% correct that the damage for them unbuffed is roughly the same as it is unbuffed now, but you also have to consider that the effect of berserk is being lowered as well. From its current 50% down to 30%, and that isn't even considering what other abilities might be adjusted or outright removed. This is also a 10 level gain and a 20 ilevel gain for the same damage we can do currently.

While not necessarily a fan of Tank damage going back to scaling on STR (hey, at least it gives us something to meld? :/), I would point out that none of the other jobs did significantly more damage in the LL either, so I suspect the new formulas simply result in lower overall damage for the level / ilvl than what we have now.

[Falar]

I can live with STR being the only source of ATK damage again and being locked into VIT acc as long as we can advanced meld STR again.

[jazzcatte]

Unless things change, Dark Knight spends 20% MP going into Grit. Unless they're dropping MP costs on Dark Knight skills it's still a pretty heavy resource cost.

As far as I'm aware we haven't seen anything about DRK's MP usage in the 4.0 stuff they've shown us. I was referring to the blood gauge with my comment, I agree with you that the MP cost is likely to remain.