Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Ama_Hamada]

I'm a troll for giving my opinion? I quit whm at 50 because of how ridiculous holy spam and dps spells were. Scholar is 60 and I still feel like a DPS with healer and a few mitigation spells.
The only one trolling here is you for resorting to name calling. I'm not even going to waste anymore time with you.

Either you misunderstood my Cleric stance opinion or you just disagree but the overall idea is that if DPS spells cost alot more there would not really be a need for cleric stance for anything other than skill bloat and annoyance because you will be spending alot less time IN cleric stance. Switching into it just to recast DoTs would be annoying. Since I stated earlier in that same post that I think spells should cost 10% MP or more, Casting a DPS spell 10 times would zero out your MP. Cleric stance would just be annoying at that point more than a healer skill level increaser.

You are making no sense, you even said your self "there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool." plus you are only 50, you do not really have room to speak on the manner if something needs nerfing. WHM has the lowest mp regeneration and you want to hurt them more? that's just rofl worthy.

You should really stop claiming that every post that doesn't agree with your wild expectations is a troll. It's bad form. Other people have these things called "opinions", y'see.

That is not an opinion, it is trolling, did you read his post carefully? that makes no sense what so ever.

I'm still of the opinion that DPS spells on healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less. Single target spells should use 10% or more MP, especially stone III. DoT spells should be very low cause those are perfect for downtimes healing.

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

I really think though, that dps spells should cost alot more mp cause this will not only bring more skill into play but more strategy cause a healer has to decide whether or not DPSing is going to make or break their MP pool and cause a wipe. Other people in the party will probably stop blasting healers as much for not DPSing for anything other than DoTs.

Also: Get rid of clerics stance, there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool. This lets a healer time manage their spare MP and more freely toss out a DPS spell or DoTs when they feel confident their MP can spare it.

Right there, he is fighting is own opinion so i called him a troll, I do not see the big deal. Also flare is like 1/2 the mp as holy ... **** (with current max mp of a blm and using mp like they should, anyway 1000-1600 mp flare cost is, depending where you are in rotations, to 1768 holy) ok so not half even on lower end.. but still..

[bswpayton]

You are making no sense, you even said your self "there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool." plus you are only 50, you do not really have room to speak on the manner if something needs nerfing. WHM has the lowest mp regeneration and you want to hurt them more? that's just rofl worthy.

on a side note and im not trolling Ive had more mp issues with astro dpsing like gravity spam than I ever had on whm , but Im fully aware that whm has the most issues with mp tho, but in my experience its been astro for some reason

[Ama_Hamada]

on a side note and im not trolling Ive had more mp issues with astro dpsing like gravity spam than I ever had on whm , but Im fully aware that whm has the most issues with mp tho, but in my experience its been astro for some reason

Luminiferous aether and... ewer when needed.. but I rarely see an AST resort for that. Regardless of using one or both, you can extend how long they lost with celestial opposition, this is why AST has more mp regeneration then WHM does. also do not think I call a lot of posts "troll" I don't and that is most likely the first time I did so, or at least first time I can recall. (and I did so for good reason) Another trick AST do, like whm using beni as a DPS tool is use Essential dignitiy. You let the tank get low as ya dps, (drop cleric, only whm can heal in cleric using beni as a dps tool;p) use essential dignity (cost no mp and instant) then top them off with whatever and go back to DPS. Yer not a troll cuz ya have problems doing something, lamo.

[Sebazy]

on a side note and im not trolling Ive had more mp issues with astro dpsing like gravity spam than I ever had on whm , but Im fully aware that whm has the most issues with mp tho, but in my experience its been astro for some reason

I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

[bswpayton]

I can't stress how nigh broken it is to be able to ewer yourself, hit ASTshroud and extend both. If you're carrying the damage in a dungeon and spamming a lot more Gravities than you would like, don't be afraid to skip a balance and feed yourself instead. It's pretty much a guaranteed full MP bar from near nothing.

I admit that I totally failed to realize the fact I could and should use ewer on myself haha I was just always burning them so this was def an issue I placed on myself haha. I guess I was just always lookin for the next spread are card buff forgettin to use ewer on myself if i ever ran into mp issues. So it def was a player error on my part ha totally slipped my mind

[Atlaworks]

Right there, he is fighting is own opinion so i called him a troll, I do not see the big deal. Also flare is like 1/2 the mp as holy ... **** (with current max mp of a blm and using mp like they should, anyway)

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

Anyway. Dude has an opinion. You can disagree, but at least respect it, geez. Not everyone who disagrees is out to get the poor, persecuted healers and make them stay in the kitchen when they want to do more and more damage every patch.

[Ama_Hamada]

Since we've resorted to name calling, I'm going to go ahead and say your reading comprehension and understanding is troll worthy. I really don't even feel like dumbing down what I have already said anymore foryou. Just keep believing I'm a troll, I don't even care. I can appreciate bswpaytons tone and arguments but you aren't worth an effort.

Edit: I can see you took flare, I definitely should have stated blm fire aoe more clearly. I was talking about BLM Fire II with Astral Fire III up. That is my fault for not being clear enough there. That's all I'll allow myself to give you.

My reading comprehension is fine, tyvm, you are the issue:

I'm still of the opinion that DPS spells on healer should cost alot more mp, especially holy and other classes AOE equivalent. Think BLM fire aoe spell costs but maybe a little less. Single target spells should use 10% or more MP, especially stone III. DoT spells should be very low cause those are perfect for downtimes healing.

Another problem IMHO is that there is too many mechanics in this game that are simply dodge and win. There is not enough unavoidables that dish out damage forcing a healer to heal in this game. There could even be stages of avoidance, a spot where you take 100% dmg, 75% dmg, 50% dmg similar to meteors that scale depending how far away you are but will always hit you.

I really think though, that dps spells should cost alot more mp cause this will not only bring more skill into play but more strategy cause a healer has to decide whether or not DPSing is going to make or break their MP pool and cause a wipe. Other people in the party will probably stop blasting healers as much for not DPSing for anything other than DoTs.

Also: Get rid of clerics stance, there's no need to have to switch to a dps stance when casting 10 dps spells is going to zero out your MP pool. This lets a healer time manage their spare MP and more freely toss out a DPS spell or DoTs when they feel confident their MP can spare it.

You can't just say "oh WHM DPS spells need to cost more mp, then give an arguments of "Get rid of clerics stance because (right now) because WHM DPS spells cost too much mp.

Also Mp costs are not treated equal, BLM gets mp back like water. WHM has a hard time getting mp back, on top of the high mp costs that you admit?

People are wanting to heal more, this would only be part of a solution. I already stated more damage should be coming out. More focus should be on Dots between heals and their high DPS spells should be for spare MP and if anything DPS clock mechanics that they can spare a larger section of their mp pool.

Edit: I don't expect people to agree with my opinion but at the same time, assumptions and trying to make me look like an idiot is unacceptable. I'm done here, I've already stated my two cents. My opinion on whm may not hold as much weight since I didn't play it for 3.0 but My thoughts are still the same even for scholar.

We are not assume, it is clear you do not have the experience with what you are saying here, perpetually with WHM. For a scholar only player giving out suggestions and hurting the endgame WHM is rofl worthy. When you give an opinion, you should have some backing and explaining how you got there, not some half bake idea because you hate WHM because you only leveled SCH or whatever your issue is.

Why do people keep assuming my experience level. I have played all of the things you have mentioned on scholar and in every single one of those, I have literally just spammed DPS spells most of the time with side healing. If there was any MP management at all, it was because there was a horrendous amount of deaths from people who are too lazy to dodge or at the final phase of diabolos where everything is mostly a gigantic clustorfk of a mess.

There is alot of skepticism towards accuracy towards 4.0. Considering the future of accuracy I'm not sure if that even matters.

You have no accuracy medls, you have NO ROOM, to speak on changes like this, you simply do not have the experience. You have not DPS in salvage because you do not have the accuracy for it. More so you have not done all those things as a WHM.

Flare is literally all your MP to cast what're you talking about, that's how the spell works.

Anyway. Dude has an opinion. You can disagree, but at least respect it, geez. Not everyone who disagrees is out to get the poor, persecuted healers and make them stay in the kitchen when they want to do more and more damage every patch.

Talking about flare being used properly, the mp cost is going to change with how you use it.

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

[Mycow8me]

Again, are you reading his post? It makes no sense. You can't say "WHM spells cost too little mp right now, then say , we need drop cleric stance because whm spells cost too much mp? That is not an opinion anymore. Meaning, he is contradicting himself for whatever reason.

Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.
You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.

Healers can heal for around 20% of a tanks max HP every GCD noncrit just spamming a single spell. That's 40% max HP every GCD in a full party. Around 20% of everyone's max HP every GCD by having both spam AoEs. A bit more to account for fairy/regen/CDs. Do you realize how insane it'd be to up the damage to match current healing levels? How insanely stressful healing would become? You can catch a glimpse of what you're asking for in PvP.

I find the very notion sooomewhat insane. But whatever it takes not to get nerfed or class complexity, huh?

So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

[Ama_Hamada]

Because cleric stance becomes useless and skill bloat when you don't need to dps as much, annoying even when you are recasting DoTs between healing which I've stated numerous times. I never once implied that currently clerics stance is useless cause of mp costs. You are just reading into it differently apparently.You continue to discredit my opinion of whm when back in 2.0 holy spam was about the same it is now. You continue to call me a troll because you are unable to see an opinion my way... You continue to have writing/reading deficits. I don't know where to start or to end with you. I feel like I'm talking to a potato. I'll just agree to disagree.



So what, you want to lower their healing capability instead to make content more variable with healing? I thought making healing more stressful was the idea, so they would heal more and dps less. There's obviously a point at which it becomes to stressful but are we really that close right now? I feel like I dps spam more than I heal in pretty much every content unless the party has alot of low skill or new players. I don't do PVP.

Say it with me now.
This is not 2.0
this is not 2.0
this is not 2.0

No it is not the same. You really need more experience. It is not a discredit, it is just hard to relate when you have little experience.

That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.

But that does not work! Even if we assume that is what the person meant, it is TOO HARD ON WHM MP! to make matters worse, he is not experienced in WHM to know if it is a good idea or not. If you are going to try limit DPS over the use of cleric stance or enlarging the mp cost, I pick cleric. There is no issue with cleric stance, if they take it out they better take out tank stance dancing because there is a good number that can't do it right and makes it too hard to heal. If clerics is too hard then all DPS in this game is too hard.

Technically, no. Flare is a minimum of 850~MP. You don't need all your MP to use it, but you CAN use all your MP to use it.

Also, Mycow8me, as far as I'm concerned, healers should be DPSing as long as their heals aren't required for that specific GCD. If you believe that they shouldn't be DPSing and that Cleric needs to go and MP costs need to be boosted, that's fine. You can have that mindset, even if it's inane to state that MP consumption should be high for DPS spells. Imagine running out of MP in the middle of a story duty and failing because you can neither heal yourself nor deal damage to the enemy... that would be broken.

Just take a second and think about what you're talking about instead of just throwing out ideas without thinking of repercussions.

exactly. Increasing MP cost just breaks more then solve.

As someone who has always mained a healer and does DPS without issue current state, I support the removal of cleric stance and having healer dps scale off MND. Cleric stance is cumbersome and not fictionally needed. 4.0 is supposed to be about closing skill gap after all....

Can we close the gap with tanks and remove tank stances?

[Atlaworks]

Snip

That's a lot of silliness over there. Flare being all MP aside, and factoring in "X amount of BLM MP" when their MP is functionally infinite, is on a different scale.

But more than that you're still insisting this person is a troll and contradicting themselves when they're articulating their argument in a polite and concise way, and explaining thoroughly why their idea works how it does. It's functionally "They say Clerics is too hard to toggle, just make it harder to DPS in a different way by making the mana bar what they juggle instead of Clerics". You're just shooting everything down that's not "Give healers more DPS we want more DPS" and discrediting the person you're arguing with because they're not a level 60 healer like you, like it's a prerequisite to present any sort of idea. It reminds me of how children will hold their breath until they pass out when they get angry.