Why are summoners so neglected?

[Silverquick]

It's not splitting hairs when I simply don't understand how you're even getting to your conclusion and am trying to figure it out. Your opener as written doesn't work the way you say it does

... but that's clearly not the motivation or result, so I'm sticking with my higher dps opener. Cheers!

Well then go for it.

I'll keep my steady damage without risking getting caught flat footed later with Tri-Disaster on CD at the most inopportune time.... and dodging heavy mechanics, leaving me with no DoTs on the mob.

It's a choice either way, and a gamble... for both of us for that matter... and either scenario could and does... play itself out in the game.

That is reality.

[Mhaeric]

I'll keep my steady damage without risking getting caught flat footed later with Tri-Disaster on CD at the most inopportune time.... and dodging heavy mechanics, leaving me with no DoTs on the mob. .

Which you still haven't actually explained how that works differently than for my set-up which ends up in exactly the same place with dot duration remaining after the same time spent but with less cd duration remaining and more dps outputted.
All I've got so far from you is a wishy-washy statement about fluidity later on that doesn't actually make sense in the context of comparing the two openers. My opener doesn't result in a longer time waiting for Tri-disaster and yours doesn't make it so that hard casting dots happens less frequently, so that's why I'm so confused about what you're trying to say, since your stated result doesn't actually follow from your set-up.

Both of you need to work more on those openers. :^)

Lol. I'm sure of that. And it certainly wasn't a pissing match about openers, at least from my standpoint. I in no way claim to be a hardcore top tier smn, hence why I legitimately had the question of why use contagion earlier rather than later. I received an answer which I felt was unsatisfactory in effectiveness, so I explained why. I based my opener mostly on this one which may or may not be out of date, but in practice works quite well regardless: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...game_Rotations
Using potions is a bit too hardcore for me, so I just take them out, and using the extra Ruin 2's in there adds complication so I just stick with Ruin 3's except when near the end of a dreadwyrm trance if I can squeeze in a ruin 2 but not a ruin 3. Regardless, I do use a parser whenever I play dps solely to gauge how I'm doing since I hate being in the dark about whether I'm actually doing a good job at my role or not. Parser data has shown that I'm always doing well as a SMN so that's all that really matters to me. (Aside: I found out I really, really suck at MCH thanks to parser data, and that I'm not as good a BLM in 3.0 compared to 2.0 and vice versa for SMN. It's a wonderful tool that has the unfortunately ability to be used in a highly toxic way by a community at large. Ah well. Different thread.)

And why are you guys even talking about who has the better opener when the topic is about whether SMN should focus more on pet interaction, focus more on trance, or be like Dissidia Yuna.

Erm... keep it the way it is. Anything else is too much of an overhaul for something that isn't actually broken. Also, we've seen how much the addition of 5 abilities (or heck, even 1: hi WP Bards!) can change a class significantly from one expansion to the next, so it will be interesting to see what the next 5 abilities in SB will bring to SMN. I suspect something to make single target damage have a bit more oomph, like maybe a single target trance finisher option.

[Silverquick]

Which you still haven't actually explained how that works differently than for my set-up which ends up in exactly the same place with dot duration remaining after the same time spent but with less cd duration remaining and more dps outputted.

Translation: You can't understand the difference between on paper... and in reality...

Got it...

[Mhaeric]

Translation: You can't understand the difference between on paper... and in reality...

Got it...

In reality I have zero trouble maintaining dots at all times, despite not using your opener.

Edit: I've also just now done some more research, and every single opener guide I can find shows contagion being used inside the Dreadwyrm Trance effect, so I'm definitely going to stick with that. Done responding to you.

[Silverquick]

In reality I have zero trouble maintaining dots at all times, despite not using your opener.

Edit: I've also just now done some more research, and every single opener guide I can find shows contagion being used inside the Dreadwyrm Trance effect, so I'm definitely going to stick with that. Done responding to you.

Well that's Cool,

But... I don't just blindly follow someone else's guide... I actually try it and see if it works.

If it works sometimes, but not all the time... due to circumstances like, say... major AoEs or mechanics in a fight hosing up your rotation... and forcing you to move with Tri-Disaster on CD and no DoTs on target... (because it is a 60 second CD, and Contagion only extended your DoTs to 30 seconds)... well then...

I file it under the.... Tactically doable,

....but situational with risk... and a judgement call.

[Dyvid]

Erm... keep it the way it is. Anything else is too much of an overhaul for something that isn't actually broken. Also, we've seen how much the addition of 5 abilities (or heck, even 1: hi WP Bards!) can change a class significantly from one expansion to the next, so it will be interesting to see what the next 5 abilities in SB will bring to SMN. I suspect something to make single target damage have a bit more oomph, like maybe a single target trance finisher option.

Well I think the question is should SE make the job pet based like it was designed in ARR or go with the spell base trance in 3.0? It's true SMN functions and provides DPS but it's the unclear design going forward that is making people mad. Personally I want them to pick one or the other, and then go all in with that choice. If it's pet then find a way to add more pets and a way to make them all useful. If it's spells then drop the pets, readjust ability damage to make up for dps lose, and summons to call / release. FYI: don't get me started on the boneheaded decision with Bards, a party attack bonus song would have easily increased dps and still feel like a bard but I digress.

Personally I hate the trance and stop play SMN shortly after 3.0. I main'ed MCH because the turrets where more in line with how I wanted pets meaning I had a turret for AoE situations and one for single target needs; plus I was actively swapping them out. I didn't love the job though and found myself playing less in 3.0 than I did in 2.0. I know SE is just going to double down on trance and don't even expect new glamour egi for 4.0 so I guess I'll try RDM / SAM and hopefully find a job that makes me want to log in and play again.

[Mhaeric]

Personally I hate the trance and stop play SMN shortly after 3.0. I main'ed MCH because the turrets where more in line with how I wanted pets meaning I had a turret for AoE situations and one for single target needs; plus I was actively swapping them out. I didn't love the job though and found myself playing less in 3.0 than I did in 2.0. I know SE is just going to double down on trance and don't even expect new glamour egi for 4.0 so I guess I'll try RDM / SAM and hopefully find a job that makes me want to log in and play again.

I'm actually the opposite. I always liked the concept of SMN even in 2.0, but didn't really feel like I contributed anything back then since there wasn't a lot of actual damage numbers flying on the screen from it, and certainly not big ones except for the very occasional fester crit. It just felt like a very passive job, and thus boring. BLM was much more satisfying in 2.0 for me, particularly since it was hard to screw up as a BLM the rotation was so simple.

In 3.0, however, Trance has given SMN a very active and fun feel to me with some consistently big numbers and exciting burst phases, while BLM, even though the numbers are still very big and exciting, feels like I'm always on the edge of my seat terrified of losing Enochian and is therefore now less fun.

I'm too am hoping to switch to RDM main in 4.0, because it really looks fun and seems to have a similar burst phase to what SMN has now, but if I suck at it or don't like it as much as I thought I would then I'll probably go back to having SMN as my main dps since I do like the trance mechanic.

[Silverquick]

In 3.0, however, Trance has given SMN a very active and fun feel to me with some consistently big numbers and exciting burst phases, while BLM, even though the numbers are still very big and exciting, feels like I'm always on the edge of my seat terrified of losing Enochian and is therefore now less fun.

Honestly I'm with you on this.

This is a seriously fun part of being a SMN. While I liked it back in ARR... 3.0 and Heavensward really made everything fun to play.

Has anyone seen any reference to the new abilities the SMN will get in Stormblood?

Honestly even if we only got another 3 stacks of Aetherflow to Deathflare with I'd probably still be happy with it because I could still have a blast Deathflaring the crap out of things.

But it would be cool to get some new things to spend Aetherflow stacks on.

[Neela]

Well I think the question is should SE make the job pet based like it was designed in ARR or go with the spell base trance in 3.0? It's true SMN functions and provides DPS but it's the unclear design going forward that is making people mad. Personally I want them to pick one or the other, and then go all in with that choice. If it's pet then find a way to add more pets and a way to make them all useful. If it's spells then drop the pets, readjust ability damage to make up for dps lose, and summons to call / release.

first of all I like the current smn system with egi & personal skills. I would love if they would let be trance like it is. it's about Bahamuts wrath hm? they shouldn't mix that up with other primals or backgrounds. on the otherhand I would love to see more interaction via the egi-system itself.

Personally I hate the trance and stop play SMN shortly after 3.0. I main'ed MCH because the turrets where more in line with how I wanted pets meaning I had a turret for AoE situations and one for single target needs; plus I was actively swapping them out.

i don't feel that turrets are pets at all... even less interaction than with egis/fairys... for me it's just one more oGCD. For me a pet-cls should be based on the pet itself with way more variety than just buff them (MCH) or release ONE aoe atk every 3 mins (SMN)...

I don't meant to implement more different egis (although that would be really nice) but more skills and more personality to those. either like someone said early reducing the cd from enkindle and giving them a more "summon-like" animation like Deathflare/Terraflare (Yuna Dissidia) -> this would at least give the cls a more core related feeling of its own – or what I ever dreamed off since I saw it the first time after release: change the egi-system to a system like the PotD Manticore pot-system - controllable egis for a certain amount of time with a trance-finisher-ability before it's over (Yuna FF-X) <3