Dam. meter

[StarRosie]

I can see that you don't believe having an astonishing low bottom line player base as a communal issue, so I can see how you wouldn't see eye to eye with my points. If you don't see that as a problem, that's where our dissonance is! I believe this community can be better if given the tools to do so

The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!" This is kinda what I've been getting from the pro parser side in some of the recent posts. It's just a little to...aaahhh I don't know how to put it, but it isn't quite right. There will always be bad players and there will always be players who think they are fine where they are. No amount of tools and parsers is gonna change that. Surely you gotta understand that. So what do we do about them? Kick and boot underperforming players from runs till they quit the game? Then we lose players and subs which means a loss of money and funds for the game.

Those who want to improve themselves will seek out the tools to do so. I don't think adding an official parser is gonna magically flip a switch in bad player's heads to go "Thank god they added an official parser, without one, I had no desire to improve myself. But now that they have added one, I do!" so it makes me wonder if this hard push for an official parser is more for validation and acknowledgement of the players who do use them. So, I do have to ask, if we did add a parser and it didn't raise the overall player skill level, then what? The question goes both ways. I don't know, I think I'm rambling at this point. Sorry.

[Greedalox]

The problem with that line of thinking, is it's rather absolutist. "If you put the tool in officially, EVERYONE will use it and want to better themselves!"

I'm sorry if I put it across like that! But even if EVERYONE has a parser, of course not everyone will improve. But maybe SOME people will improve and that's great for the community as a whole! But at the same point, if everyone had a parser, I doubt many people would get worse so it's really at no loss and potentially all gain.

As for abuse and kicking, I made a post on the previous page of this thread explaining how I don't believe that harassment and abuse of tools in an MMO stands for grounds of opposition to it's implementation. We wouldn't have much more than a skeleton of a game if fear of harassment stood in the way of new things.

[StarRosie]

-snip-

But again, those people who want to improve will seek the tools themselves. So what happens to those who don't? I'm not talking harassment, abuse maybe but the question is ultimately, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? Do we just boot and exclude them till they quit? I understand the benefits of adding an official parser, I get them 100% but I think we're only looking at the benefits and not really the side effects that could come from it. Trying to remove the discussion about how the parser could be abused, removes a serious portion of discussion. When the abuse starts hurting the game itself.

(PREFACE: Keep in mind, I am not talking about all pro parser users, more the extremes who do boot and exclude people based on parsers.)

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it. So those who boot based on parsers would most likely be way more open about it and the fact we have GMs essentially saying it's ok to vote kick people based on differing playstyles, means there are no repercussions for people who would abuse the parser to exclude other players. While yes, I think the benefits from adding an official parser are good, I think this would be one of those additions that the top tiers benefit the most from, mid tier players would benefit some from, and low tier players would be hurt by it, possibly leading to players quitting cause they can't get into content.

[Greedalox]

If you introduce an official parser, it normalizes the behaviors that come with it.

I believe that most of the Pro vs Against ideas can be boiled down to this statement, which I disagree with. We know that /say /shout /tell, friends list, vote kick, emotes, Back in the day we had Spirit Bonders in parties and 24 man and things of that sort- are all used for abusive means, but none of us just sit back and normalize being spammed 100+ times. We get mad, cranky and even report when people use these functions for their worst. But at the same time do you think the game would be for the better without them?

Having some dicks at an event doesn't normalize being a dick, but getting rid of the event in the first place means nobody gets to partake.

[StarRosie]

Having some dicks at an event doesn't normalize being a dick, but getting rid of the event in the first place means nobody gets to partake.

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

[Greedalox]

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

I agree that there will be people who never want to improve, and you ask me what we're supposed to do about them- but I don't think either of us or any game developer has an answer to that. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The only incentive to getting better in content that requires 200 dps (Or less, save for a couple fights with an actual enrage in dungeons) is your instilled desire to do better. Some people are horrified of 3rd party program use, especially when some people still say that Yoshi P has a zero tolerance stance on it which isn't true. Maybe some of these people have the inner drive to want to do better, but don't necessarily want to risk breaking rules or simply don't learn well in textbook situations, like flatly reading an opener and rotation and memorizing and adapting it to all situations.

I just think that more focus on those who want to get better should take precedence over the people with absolutely zero drive to get better, seeing as they're already at their destination and someone who wants to get better is not.

[Centershock]

I 100% agree but the dicks are only one half of the question, what do we do about the players who don't want to improve? The tool already exists and if people want to improve, they will seek it out. Or use one of the many other tools in the game already to improve. That's why I think part of the push for the official parser is more for validation. That the people who use it to perfect and polish their rotation to such a mirror shine, want to feel acknowledged and having an official parser would some how lead to that. Or I am interpreting things weirdly again. I guess I just don't see the huge boon from making an official version of something that already exists.

It's an echo chamber at this point, whether you are pro-parser (and actually use it in good faith) or you are anti-parser, and the reasons behind both sides.

But the above quote is one that sticks to me the most. For me, I do not believe an in-game parser is necessary. Points have already been well-made with harassment and number-shaming (it exists whether or not you believe it) and their well-intentioned uses.

I believe that a great portion of the player base will not be not responsible enough with it should this be implemented. But please don't get it twisted. I am not against having this in-game parser, I just do not believe it is necessary.