Please remove the weekly lock out of stuff

[technole]

It's still related, some people (mainly those who don't raid alex savage) are just a bit soar that the i270 gobdip upgrade is not freely available to the casual raid and Dun Scaith gear is still locked to a weekly drop.

You can get a i270-275 by doing an anima, learn to clear A11S for a gobdip like all of us did early-on, or even A12S for a i275. Look they can't give away everything on a silver platter, you have to work for this stuff until likely patch 3.57.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

Tomestone weapons should never be equal to a raid capstone weapon. The only time that happened was in Gordias Savage because they made a mistake of putting the i210 gobdip upgrade in A4S along with a Gordian i210 weapon drop. Then they made it a bit of a mess later of having the anima go up to i210 that tier, that killed a lot of incentive to push through Gordias for those that didn't already. So if you didn't do an anima all-the-way or clear A4S, the highest you could go was Tome i200 weapon or a Thordan EX i205 weapon.

Hence the change in Midas to +5 ilvl and adding an i245 exclusive weapon, and moving the Gobdip to the 3rd turn. This also allowed them to release the Gobdip in the very last patch cycle with the 24-man weekly. So i240 was available to anima and Eso weapon users, and i245 only to those who clear A8S.

Mind you, that doesn't even mean i245 is even "freely" available because it's loot RNG with each weekly clear, so only one weapon/week. If you are unlucky, you have to spend 8 weeks of pages to buy your own.

As you pointed out, RNG does play a role in raid gear. So it baffles me when people suggest that tomestone gear needs to be significantly lower in ilvl in relation to raid gear, when raiders themselves can benefit from tomestone gear when the rng doesn't favor them. You also touch on a significant factor of raiding. Incentive. While raiders have a number of incentives to raid, ilvl seems to be the only one given much credence... and apparently a 5 ilvl advantage isn't enough for many raider's egos.

It's still related, some people (mainly those who don't raid alex savage) are just a bit soar that the i270 gobdip upgrade is not freely available to the casual raid and Dun Scaith gear is still locked to a weekly drop.

You can get a i270-275 by doing an anima, learn to clear A11S for a gobdip like all of us did early-on, or even A12S for a i275. Look they can't give away everything on a silver platter, you have to work for this stuff until likely patch 3.57.

Some raiders threw a hissy fit over the anima being able to get to 275 if I recall.

[technole]

As you pointed out, RNG does play a role in raid gear. So it baffles me when people suggest that tomestone gear needs to be significantly lower in ilvl in relation to raid gear, when raiders themselves can benefit from tomestone gear when the rng doesn't favor them. You also touch on a significant factor of raiding. Incentive. While raiders have a number of incentives to raid, ilvl seems to be the only one given much credence... and apparently a 5 ilvl advantage isn't enough for many raider's egos.

Well you get the tomestone in A10S, so the i260 is available without waiting what was it, seven weeks for one (just need the 2+ weeks of scripture to buy it). Then clearing A11S in the first month for the i270 gobdip upgrade, which is also once a week, and usually goes to the DPS first. Or spend 4-weeks of A11S pages to buy one for ourselves.

I didn't need it to clear A12S, my i260 anima was just fine at the time. ilvl incentive for raiders makes things easier to clear, and generally there is a sense of competitiveness with even midcore raiding. People like to speed things up and post better numbers weekly. Weekly Savage clears aren't always one-shot either, mistakes happen so more ilvl helps.

Some raiders threw a hissy fit over the anima being able to get to 275 if I recall.

Some. I don't mind because we had over 5+ months of i275 exclusivity with A12S until they added the anima step, and it's the end of the expansion. Second, many raiders desire the most optimal stats since not every Alex 275 was "perfect". Animas have allowed the fastest Alex Savage clears to-date, and kept the small speed running population going.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What you're describing is a symptom of how the game currently works and is exactly what I'm talking about is the problem with how it currently works.

No. I am describing how statics work. These are community built and won't change regardless of gear restrictions or lack thereof unless you unlock savage too. They recruit based on jobs or roles and very few want their members randomly switching jobs. Like I said, most will kick you outright if you insist. They want commitment to specific things, not you bouncing around jobs. At least not during progression. Some of the more super casual may be more open to it, but even that's uncommon. None of this has anything to do with how the game's structured but how the community puts together statics.

[Arkune]

Usually, i am not up to get into "Why Raiders do need higher Ilevel Stuff" but to be honest, they deserve it. I am a non-raider since this Kind of Raids (Coil/Alex) doesnt apeal to me since it doesnt feel like a raid to me, just more like Primals. There is a reason why People raiding, some are just motivated to clear it and doesnt care about Gear and others (which is basicly the minority) do it for Looks and Ilevel to be ahead of everyoneelse who cannot Raid due RL issues or dont want to.

For me, SEs design is really bad because Tome Gear should be needed to get into Savage and not be the equivalent to the Raiders Gear. The numbers of Raiders in this Game (in my opinion) isnt that low because ist "too hard", its just low because it doesnt worth it.

SE added back to release of Alex a Normal Mode to let casual Players experience the Story and also gave them Gear as reward. Without the Gear Progression behind it, People would just do it once and would never touch it again.
Same goes for Savage, if it doesnt reward you in your desire, its not worth doin it, thats the Point.

People should stop asking to be carried from this Game, if you dont Raid, then the highest possible Ilevel isnt for you.

ps.: The reasson why Raiders "need" the highest Ilevel is because new Content get released over and over and should be allowed to get right into the next Raid Content and not farming Tomes again.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

Usually, i am not up to get into "Why Raiders do need higher Ilevel Stuff" but to be honest, they deserve it. I am a non-raider since this Kind of Raids (Coil/Alex) doesnt apeal to me since it doesnt feel like a raid to me, just more like Primals. There is a reason why People raiding, some are just motivated to clear it and doesnt care about Gear and others (which is basicly the majority) do it for Looks and Ilevel to be ahead of everyoneelse who cannot Raid due RL issues or dont want to.

For me, SEs design is really bad because Tome Gear should be needed to get into Savage and not be the equivalent to the Raiders Gear. The numbers of Raiders in this Game (in my opinion) isnt that low because ist "too hard", its just low because it doesnt worth it.

SE added back to release of Alex a Normal Mode to let casual Players experience the Story and also gave them Gear as reward. Without the Gear Progression behind it, People would just do it once and would never touch it again.
Same goes for Savage, if it doesnt reward you in your desire, its not worth doin it, thats the Point.

People should stop asking to be carried from this Game, if you dont Raid, then the highest possible Ilevel isnt for you.

ps.: The reasson why Raiders "need" the highest Ilevel is because new Content get released over and over and should be allowed to get right into the next Raid Content and not farming Tomes again.

Again I don't agree.

At a quick glance, asking "why do non-raiders need similar ilvl gear to raiders" does look like a fair question. If you are not doing raids and world and dungeon mobs really don't get all that much tougher, why would you need to do 3k dps vs. 1k (making up numbers here)? The answer? First and Foremost this is a gear progression based game for the most part. Even casual players will get all their drops in dungeons or crafted gear eventually. And once that happens where do you go from there? Without a continuous goal to strive for, players end up drifting away. Case in point, the reduction of players waiting for Stormblood. Most of them likely have all the gear they need and have little to work towards in the lull before the xpac drops.

SE tries to get us content on a regular basis, but in all honesty they will never ever be able to produce it as quickly as we consume it. So it gives players something to work towards if raiding doesn't fit their play style. This is one of the reasons tomestone gear exists and is as good as it is. Those non-raiders have something to work towards after they've gotten what they can get from the content they engage in. Raiders also benefit from it as tomestone gear supplements their raid drops allowing them to make up for poor rng and/or get geared faster.

I've mentioned this before but player power is one of the biggest motivators to play the game and SE most certainly wants as many people playing the game as possible. Player power also doesn't exist in a vacuum. If the gear disparity is too great between raiders and non-raiders, then raiders have a large advantage in ALL content, not just raiding. Saying that the "majority" of raiders raid just to clear the content is BS. Because if that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, and raiders wouldn't have had a conniption fit over Gordias Savage and the Anima going to 275.

Ultimately the game as a whole benefits from keeping the gear gaps small. Why? Because, simply put, it eases the engaging of ALL content. As a raider, you'll invariably lose members of your static to a variety of reasons from burn out to babies. Getting new raiders to fill that spot isn't always easy, but a small gear gap does help in that regard in that your pool of potential recruits will typically not be too far behind gearwise for the raid content you're engaging in. In non-raid content, how many of us /facepalm when we see someone in our dungeon who's just gotten to a high enough ilvl to qualify for it? The runs go slower when the lower ilvl tank has only half the hp of the raid tank, or the low ilvl healer can't keep up with healing large pulls, or the low ilvl dps can't kill the packs fast enough for the tank and healer to last through. It's less fun for everyone. While that's inevitable to some degree, for the most part people don't stay at those ilvls for too long since the tomestone gear does allow them to catch up in a decent amount of time.

There's more to endgame in FFXIV than raiding and that's something that I think many people struggle with. FFXIV is not really a "raid or die" game. It's more a "raid if you want a small edge and access to exclusive cosmetics (armor models, mounts, etc)" type of game. The difference in player power due to gear is very small in FFXIV and thats a good thing! Why? Because it makes it so skill will make more of a difference in your performance than just having a huge gap in ilvl between players. It also gives players who aren't raiders something to strive for and facilitates their entry into raiding if they so desire.

If anyone can't see the benefits of the small gear gap we have in FFXIV right now, then I say they either aren't looking hard enough, or they're too self centered to see the bigger picture.

[Nixxe]

A lot do. Or rather they care about the proverbial carrot. Take away mounts from the extreme primals and I guarantee each and every single one will be dead content within a month; two tops. How many people complain about running the same two dungeons? If they could hit 2000 Scripture in a week and gear up their main job. How often do you think they'll keep running those same dungeons? I barely run them even with the tomestone restrictions. It's simple human nature. Most people won't do something unless they are in some way benefited. At least not consistently. No matter how nice and helpful someone may be, eventually they'll get tired. And this doesn't even take into consideration crafted gear becomes completely worthless. Who's going to buy gear of the market board for thousands when they can spam Gubal Hard ten times? What about Alex Normal. Clear it once and just spam dungeons for Scriptures. Even if you bump everything up to 260, people will then farm whatever happens to be fastest.

None of this insinuates players only play for gear. It merely posits most won't run content 20-30-50 times for no reason other than "the dungeon looks pretty."

A perfect example are the 24 man raids. Crystal Tower was dead content until the Anima forced us all back into it. How many people would run Void Ark/Weeping/Dun Scaith if they could get everything they wanted in a couple weeks-- less if they're willing to farm?

It's really not possible to have a productive conversation on this topic if you want to keep conflating the specific issue of gear with the broader concept of having any reason whatsoever to do the content. Ponies are decidedly not gear related and are the perfect example of things that will keep people doing content even if you let them gear up quickly and easily. There are still pony farm groups, actual pony farms, not birds, even to this day. The gear is worthless, but the cosmetic reward never loses value so long as there are people who don't have it and want it. Gear is a very temporary incentive even at the best of times.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Ok going by the poster who said most play 2 hours a day. Tuesday = Cap scrips(can be done in 2/3 hours. Wednesday = Dun scaith if lucky will get drop . Thursday/Friday 2 days of savage. Within 3/4 days at 2 hours a night majority of the content is done. Now yes can do bird farming or pvp but then just replace that with the scrip farming and you kill two birds with one stone.

So now the argument is go craft etc for the rest of the week, yet if you don't need gil then that's out of the question too. So all that is left is either talk to friends, help others or go play another game. It's ok having it casual friendly but at present it is too casual friendly. But like I said earlier I come across more players that play 3/4 hours a night.

So no 450 scrips is not enough that either needs to be 900 or 450 per class. Story raid/Savage should let us get 2 drops per week change it to a 72hr reset.

[Arkune]

.

I am not going into every single Point you have mentioned.

1) Disagree because it is no "fair" question why Raiders are allowed to have the Best Gear or Highest Ilevel ingame. They work for it and some of them have to Training Alot and should be rewarded for it. To be honest, running Dungeon on Minimum Ilevel Gear required for it, is still easy so why should it be rewarded with Gear which is smililar to a 8 PPL Raid which required Skill and Class Knowledge?

2) I never said any word in my Post how huge the Gap between Raiders and Non-Raiders should be, but 10Ilevels should make the deal.

3) I never facepalm because i cannot speedrun anything, i never did in ARR and never did in HW. Aslong as they know how to Play their Job and know the Boss mechanics i am perfectly fine.

4) To argue that u cannot fill your static and they Need the Ilevel to be viable for the Raids is completly cheap. Look at those PF Groups which set the ilevels to numbers which arent necassary to those fights, and those "farm" Groups fail hard. Gear doesnt make a bad Player a better one. If you cannot understand mechanics, if you cannot Play your Job (take MCH as example with his 12 skills opener for max. DPS) then this Job or the Raid isnt for you. -And before you going to tell me i am such an elitst, i am not raiding in those Kind of games, i am helpful to newer Players and i am one of those who explains stuff to Players they dont understand the mechanics.

5) No Themepark MMO i have played has a real "Raid or Die" mentality, a "Raid or Die" Mentality would mean -> Level up, farm Dungeon Gear, get into Raid. so People they dont Raid just have Dungeon Gear and they are done with this Game. And about the Mounts and Glamour Stuff you mentioned, srsly cannot remember the release of HW with Alexander 1-4? Same Gear out of the Savage just with the Option to dye it? exclusive Glamour i guess lol.

So to argue that having no real gap i case of ilevel and Gear is a good Thing, is just one side of the medal.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

I am not going into every single Point you have mentioned.

1) Disagree because it is no "fair" question why Raiders are allowed to have the Best Gear or Highest Ilevel ingame. They work for it and some of them have to Training Alot and should be rewarded for it. To be honest, running Dungeon on Minimum Ilevel Gear required for it, is still easy so why should it be rewarded with Gear which is smililar to a 8 PPL Raid which required Skill and Class Knowledge?

2) I never said any word in my Post how huge the Gap between Raiders and Non-Raiders should be, but 10Ilevels should make the deal.

3) I never facepalm because i cannot speedrun anything, i never did in ARR and never did in HW. Aslong as they know how to Play their Job and know the Boss mechanics i am perfectly fine.

4) To argue that u cannot fill your static and they Need the Ilevel to be viable for the Raids is completly cheap. Look at those PF Groups which set the ilevels to numbers which arent necassary to those fights, and those "farm" Groups fail hard. Gear doesnt make a bad Player a better one. If you cannot understand mechanics, if you cannot Play your Job (take MCH as example with his 12 skills opener for max. DPS) then this Job or the Raid isnt for you. -And before you going to tell me i am such an elitst, i am not raiding in those Kind of games, i am helpful to newer Players and i am one of those who explains stuff to Players they dont understand the mechanics.

5) No Themepark MMO i have played has a real "Raid or Die" mentality, a "Raid or Die" Mentality would mean -> Level up, farm Dungeon Gear, get into Raid. so People they dont Raid just have Dungeon Gear and they are done with this Game. And about the Mounts and Glamour Stuff you mentioned, srsly cannot remember the release of HW with Alexander 1-4? Same Gear out of the Savage just with the Option to dye it? exclusive Glamour i guess lol.

So to argue that having no real gap i case of ilevel and Gear is a good Thing, is just one side of the medal.

Raiders ARE rewarded for their efforts. With cosmetics such as unique armor models, unique mounts and prestigious titles. With all that, coupled with a slight edge in ilvl, why do raiders need even more reward?

I have presented several benefits to how our minimal ilvl gap is GOOD for the game, and trying to handwave away those points a) doesn't work and b) doesn't support your position in any way. They are actual benefits to the game. Where a larger ivll gap between raiders and non-raiders does not, in any way, benefit the game as a whole.

Not one single person who advocates for raiders being put on a pedestal has put forth any benefits a larger ilvl gap would provide. Raiders are already rewarded enough. They don't need even more rewards on top of that which they already get. So if there's another "side" to this, please by all means elaborate. But don't just post how "raiders work so hard! of course they should get the best! And non-raiders shouldn't get anywhere near what raiders get!" because that isn't supporting your position. All that does is say raiders are entitled gits, which I know is generally not true.