[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[OmegaNovaios]

No. What I noticed is that people like abusing a completely broken system. The fact that theres so much freedom is why we're discussing this in the first place. Besides I'm not taking away all their freedom - just the parts being exploited now.

Don't confuse freedom as being better than being given a few logical choices. Freedom is an illusion.

In FFXI you were free to choose whatever subjob you want. Now if SE told you that you could only use certain subjobs for each class:

Ranger could only sub Warrior, Samurai, and Ninja. Would that have hampered that job's ability to perform? Not in the slightest. Why? Because those were the only subjobs that were being used by that job, period. If a Ranger came to your merit party, HNM party with a Black Mage sub what would you say? Wheres your freedom of play now?

Yes, thats what I thought.

If you can honestly come up with a well thought out counter argument to this I'd LOVE to hear it.

Anyways, theres some food for thought. Back to BG for me.

I really don't like this post. Many things are possible and work outside tradition and player base fixation and ideas of what a player should be. It's true that players think this way to cancel out your freedom, but things do work outside this phase and I'll give you some examples that are based upon but are effective and that probably 99% of players never thought of.

RDM/WAR as tank. This job combination requires a lot of player skill to perform effectively but I have personally done this in leveling parties. Equivalent damage taken to PLD/WAR previous to endgame gear and x2 MP pool for self curing along with bar(spell) makign it extremely effective against mob TP attacks that are elemental based and phalanx is extremely effective against very fast/weak hitting mobs. Postponed to endgame gear RDM tank is practical on magic damage dealing mobs.

RDM/NIN endgame tank is also viable. You can search this on Youtube for videos.

Tank class/BLU for super tanking. Combined with a THF or any class using SATA for boosted hate on the tank this is extremely effective for reducing damage taken beyond that of /WAR.

RDM/SCH for nuking. Combined with fast cast, convert, refresh, and B+ in nuking (/SCH allows this) makes RDM viable for DPS in this form. This setup is a viable replacement for both /blm and /whm. The only only advantage to either is elemental seal and erase at 75/37 (not including since Warp or Teleport since these aren't combat skills).

BLU/WAR for tank. In my opinion this the best possible setup for leveling as well as EG tanking especially with a genbu shield since you can stack cocoon and defender.

Now personally in FFXI I revolved around tanking/solo possibilities, but you think outside the box with a certain depth I'm sure this can be applied to other roles as well.

Not sure how well these would work out but some other ideas are:

1. BRD/COR or COR/BRD that doesn't pull. Maybe not the best for meripo but I'm sure this is effective everywhere else since it gives the job an extra buff.
2. BLU/THF for SATA enhanced damage. I have seen this before but BLU/NIN is very dominate compared to this which IMO dual wield can't compare to SATA and assuming you have a very good tank (which you should) then utsusemi is useless in parties.
3. Probably any DPS/THF for SATA + WS really.
4. DNC/NIN or NIN/DNC as tank is very effective assuming the player is skilled enough to build hate with these setups.

And I'm sure there are more setups I'm just not extremely familiar with DPS jobs.

[Cairdeas]

I really don't like this post. Many things are possible and work outside tradition and player base fixation and ideas of what a player should be. It's true that players think this way to cancel out your freedom, but things do work outside this phase and I'll give you some examples that are based upon but are effective and that probably 99% of players never thought of.

RDM/WAR as tank. This job combination requires a lot of player skill to perform effectively but I have personally done this in leveling parties. Equivalent damage taken to PLD/WAR previous to endgame gear and x2 MP pool for self curing along with bar(spell) makign it extremely effective against mob TP attacks that are elemental based and phalanx is extremely effective against very fast/weak hitting mobs. Postponed to endgame gear RDM tank is practical on magic damage dealing mobs.

RDM/NIN endgame tank is also viable. You can search this on Youtube for videos.

Tank class/BLU for super tanking. Combined with a THF or any class using SATA for boosted hate on the tank this is extremely effective for reducing damage taken beyond that of /WAR.

RDM/SCH for nuking. Combined with fast cast, convert, refresh, and B+ in nuking (/SCH allows this) makes RDM viable for DPS in this form. This setup is a viable replacement for both /blm and /whm. The only only advantage to either is elemental seal and erase at 75/37 (not including since Warp or Teleport since these aren't combat skills).

BLU/WAR for tank. In my opinion this the best possible setup for leveling as well as EG tanking especially with a genbu shield since you can stack cocoon and defender.

Now personally in FFXI I revolved around tanking/solo possibilities, but you think outside the box with a certain depth I'm sure this can be applied to other roles as well.

Not sure how well these would work out but some other ideas are:

1. BRD/COR or COR/BRD that doesn't pull. Maybe not the best for meripo but I'm sure this is effective everywhere else since it gives the job an extra buff.
2. BLU/THF for SATA enhanced damage. I have seen this before but BLU/NIN is very dominate compared to this which IMO dual wield can't compare to SATA and assuming you have a very good tank (which you should) then utsusemi is useless in parties.
3. Probably any DPS/THF for SATA + WS really.
4. DNC/NIN or NIN/DNC as tank is very effective assuming the player is skilled enough to build hate with these setups.

And I'm sure there are more setups I'm just not extremely familiar with DPS jobs.

I touched on this a few pages ago. My favorite job combo for myself was actually WHM/PLD with all defensive gear, a Hammer and shield, and 5 MNK/PLD's at my back trolling bones.

I miss those old bones parties :/

there is just something satisfying about watching 5 MNK/PLD's wail on a Bone while you are tanking it as a White Mage and it can't even attack because of your job traits and defensive skills.

[OmegaNovaios]

I touched on this a few pages ago. My favorite job combo for myself was actually WHM/PLD with all defensive gear, a Hammer and shield, and 5 MNK/PLD's at my back trolling bones.

I miss those old bones parties :/

there is just something satisfying about watching 5 MNK/PLD's wail on a Bone while you are tanking it as a White Mage and it can't even attack because of your job traits and defensive skills.

That is definitely out-of-the-box thinking, but this kind of thinking/finding new job combos was the most fun aspect of FFXI IMO and it didn't break the game by allowing things LIKE RDM/SCH having having tier 5 or 6 nukes with tier 5 or 6 cures or RDM/BLU with provoke and Sentinel which is equivalent to GLA with Cure III, Sacrifice III, and Stygian Spikes.

Personally RDM/BLU was my favorite setup especially at 80+ when I could do Dia III > Wild Oats > Chain Affinity > Vorpal Blade > Chainspell > Terror Touch > Water IV spam for around 7k damage or this w/o Chainspell and nuke spam for 1.5-2k damage (just barely possible to solo MB with tier 4 + fast cast). Doing this kind of damage while having 850+ defense (with taco) and -32ish damage per hit phalanx. Then FFXIV came out and I converted subs. XD

[Siatdiat]

There is a saying. never argue with a fool, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

I'm not wasting my time making posts that people basically ignore every point I make and respond that they just don't like it and want absolute freedom. The ironic thing is people who post both that they want even more freedom from the current system than the insane amount it has, and also they want classes to have more definition. The fact some people can't understand why these are mutually exclusive proves I am wasting my time here.

Who wants to play a game with basically no rules? In a year, even slow levelers are going to have leveled all the classes to 50. Basically a big grind just so they can have a super character, that would be like everyone else. There are a few little individual snowflakes that will make a poor combination of abilities and expect to be able to join groups, and not be accepted because the only choice devs will have then is to make content based on the average gamer who is using the most powerful combo in the game. If content is designed for 8 people, it will be 8 people with the best or close to best combinations of skills. 8 snowflakes will have no hope of completing it.

The mindset of gamers today is so different than when I was young. Playing the original FF and DW games in elementary school, myself and my friends goals were to beat the game as fast as possible, at the lowest possible levels. We would replay them and try to beat each other in this way. This made games challenging because rather than grind yourself to god status and destroy everything, you had to actually pay attention. I'm not sure what point it became about grinding for grinding sake for most players, where time spent meant you were skilled, but this is another side of what a totally free system will allow. The most hardcore grinders will grind out all classes asap, putting everyone else into catch up mode so they can become viable for endgame. Players who don't enjoy spending time grinding repetitive bullshit will quit, and the people who stay will pat themselves on the back for being hardcore. If anyone complains at this point, the mouthbreathers who stayed will mock them and say they don't have skill.

If you want ultimate freedom, find some 13 year olds to play D&D with. I have little doubt that the new team is smart enough to realize how shitty of an idea it is though and from now on I will just enjoy the tears of those who make no actual content in their posts, but just whine and throw out slogans.

[OmegaNovaios]

IMO FFXI had the most freedom an MMO can incorporate w/o breaking a game. FFXIV does need some system to restrict its current setup and Kuro's proposal is a very good fix. I think a middle ground between a skill tree, FFXI's sub job system (giving bonuses or EXCLUSIVES from ONE CLASS/JOB up to a certain level), and the current system (allowing NON EXCLUSIVES from ANY CLASS/JOB up to a certain level to be used) would be the best fix.

My point is the more customization the better so players can make something unique and that they can have pride in to make the game more interesting, but it can't allow players to have all the best skills on any class/job as this will break the game.

As for people against any reformation of the armory system you have to realize that I'm for as much customization as possible, but when you allow everyone to become overpowered it breaks the game and eliminates too much challenge from the game.

Also, one this SE should consider is allowing as much customization as possible w/o forcing whoever has the most time spent is the strongest, but instead more time spent gives you more options to fill other roles. Not fill every role at the same time on the same class.

IMO WOW has extremely limited customization, which is my #1 issue with the game. IMO FFXI had a good system setup with sub jobs for customization with the feeling of "as much time spent leveling other things I can be a different role by having more than 1 main job or I can enhance/change the role of my main job via a sub job." IMO FFXIV has a system that can be easily abused and promotes the feeling of "as much time spent leveling other things I can ultimately be everything/be overpowered on one/every class."

I think this goes beyond WOW/MMOs using skill trees, FFXI, and FFXIV allowing even more customization while at the same time restricting people from abusing the system. Now I know that restricting people from using actions past a certain level reduces customization options, but if you add a tree AND a sub job system then it makes up for the amount of customization lost.

However, I do hope that the skill tree does look more like a FF tree than a traditional MMO tree (which I think just looks really bland).

[Seikninkuru]

There is a saying. never argue with a fool, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

I'm not wasting my time making posts that people basically ignore every point I make and respond that they just don't like it and want absolute freedom. The ironic thing is people who post both that they want even more freedom from the current system than the insane amount it has, and also they want classes to have more definition. The fact some people can't understand why these are mutually exclusive proves I am wasting my time here.

Who wants to play a game with basically no rules? In a year, even slow levelers are going to have leveled all the classes to 50. Basically a big grind just so they can have a super character, that would be like everyone else. There are a few little individual snowflakes that will make a poor combination of abilities and expect to be able to join groups, and not be accepted because the only choice devs will have then is to make content based on the average gamer who is using the most powerful combo in the game. If content is designed for 8 people, it will be 8 people with the best or close to best combinations of skills. 8 snowflakes will have no hope of completing it.

The mindset of gamers today is so different than when I was young. Playing the original FF and DW games in elementary school, myself and my friends goals were to beat the game as fast as possible, at the lowest possible levels. We would replay them and try to beat each other in this way. This made games challenging because rather than grind yourself to god status and destroy everything, you had to actually pay attention. I'm not sure what point it became about grinding for grinding sake for most players, where time spent meant you were skilled, but this is another side of what a totally free system will allow. The most hardcore grinders will grind out all classes asap, putting everyone else into catch up mode so they can become viable for endgame. Players who don't enjoy spending time grinding repetitive bullshit will quit, and the people who stay will pat themselves on the back for being hardcore. If anyone complains at this point, the mouthbreathers who stayed will mock them and say they don't have skill.

If you want ultimate freedom, find some 13 year olds to play D&D with. I have little doubt that the new team is smart enough to realize how shitty of an idea it is though and from now on I will just enjoy the tears of those who make no actual content in their posts, but just whine and throw out slogans.

You are right, arguing with fools like yourself is a waste of time. Imposing your will on others is a great method of argument. It's really engrossing and helps people to grow.

D&D is so bad btw, that's why no one plays it... it gives the player freedom, how dare they not be forced into rigid roles with rigid restrictions because poor baby Siat failed art class and can't come up with a character on his own. Hopefully you'll quit before your illogical, irrational, and inane banter spreads to others.

[Siatdiat]

You are right, arguing with fools like yourself is a waste of time. Imposing your will on others is a great method of argument. It's really engrossing and helps people to grow.

Show me exactly how I have imposed my will on anyone? I may have obviously implied that through your posting have shown me you aren't very intelligent. However, I did back up my claims. Something that you have not done, and since you cannot understand me or back up your claims, you are left with getting butthurt and telling me I'm stupid. Trust me, what you say cannot offend me.

Let me explain something about an opinion. When you think of something, and consider it for yourself, that is an opinion. Once you bring it out to the light of day and share it with others, you are making a claim. An argument arises when two people have differing claims. Two people can have different opinions, but if neither claims it in public or to others, or if one claims something and then the other doesn't really care here, then an argument will not occur. In an argument, when trying to prove your point, the idea is to propose ideas that have 2 things. The first part of proposing in an argument is premises. Premises when applied allow you to reach a conclusion. Usually the conclusion is your original idea, so the way you discuss things with people like an intelligent human being is to find premises to support your idea. If your premises are true, and the logic follows through to a logical conclusion for that train of thought, then the argument is both valid, and sound. Now we are dealing more with inductive arguments here, so... this means we are dealing with probability. This means even I am not arguing for certainty, but am I using logical thought and a proper method of supporting my ideas so I am arguing for what is probable. I am saying this method is most likely the better one for making an engaging and balanced game.

You are also claiming your idea is better, but basically ignoring every argument I make and just saying "well its just my opinion." But it isnt your opinion, you are on an open forum on the internet making that opinion public, claiming its truth to people who will likely disagree, and then getting mad that I mock you for not making the first valid argument to support yourself.

D&D is so bad btw, that's why no one plays it... it gives the player freedom, how dare they not be forced into rigid roles with rigid restrictions because poor baby Siat failed art class and can't come up with a character on his own. Hopefully you'll quit before your illogical, irrational, and inane banter spreads to others.

Actually, to be accurate here, D&D does have classes and roles. It is nothing like you claim about not being forced into roles. The game is also moderated by a real person who can use reason to make decisions, versus a game that relies on what can sensibly be programmed into it. There is little comparison between any pen and paper role playing game, and a massive multiplayer online adventure game. However, we cannot judge the quality of D&D campaigns we have played because that is based on an individual GM and how they run that campaign. But I digress since mentioning D&D at all was me being sarcastic. It has little to do with the actual discussion at hand and shows your lack of comprehension of obvious sarcasm.

Ironically, I have been nothing but logical and rational in this discussion. Being rude does not equal being illogical, irrational, or inane. Also being rude does not equal me forcing anything on anyone. It is simply honest contempt for someone foolish ranting endlessly with no valid point.