[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Shazaam]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

So all the systems are exactly the same, with slight tweaks. It's a customization system, that promotes character advancement and growth... with a different font on each. Where the customization occurs and how much can be customized is up to the player in every single system.

They are all the same. Different graphics, different numbers, but inherently all the same.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

Yep, you still keep lvling GLD up while you are a PLD, but if you switch to DRK you have no DRK abilities aside from what you have leveled. The base class levels while the advanced class levels, but both advanced classes don't level at the same time. You take your PLD and GLD-base to 50 and want to swap? Then you have a DRK 1 and GLD 50 to use skills from and the stats earned on the base class.

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

Advance jobs in most FF games really WERE defined by the weapons they used. FFXI was different in unlocking 'advance jobs' but they weren't really 'advance jobs', they were new jobs that just required you had a lvl 30. Making a Magus or a Warlock in FF1 (yes FF1... I went 'old school') was an 'advanced job' that was a skill tree that branched off your base class.


Everything in this theory recalls FF1. Advance class and 'skill trees' (or whatever you want to call them) originated in the first Final Fantasy. This system is just a copypasta of something that has worked for the last 20+ years.

And I approve.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[dev1033] When I saw how Rift (one of new WoW clones) handled class system, I thought to myself 'damn, why FF14 wasn't made this way': a job/subjob/subsubjob based on skill trees (for reference, here's a skill tree builder from that on Allakhazam forums for how would my hypothetical Thief/DD/tank look like http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cuoz0z.EVb00oR). I liked FF11's job/subjob system but I like to have a choice of what abilities to use (like in current FF14 and other MMORPG tree systems). Having an option to use abilities from all leveled classes is nice and great for freedom of your playstyle, but in the same time, you'd maybe have to have level jobs just to use a single skill from them, plus abilities would have to get all evened out and nerfed to keep game balance (like Punishing Barbs got nuked because they were too good and anyone could use them).
I know it might be too much to ask since it was already done in another game, but something like Rift's class system is what I'd like to see in FF14. advanced job/subjob with a merit point-like abilities you can choose from on few different tree tiers.
Advanced jobs idea looks to me like FF11's lv30 jobs approach a bit, but I wouldn't mind, since that worked reasonably well. But I'd still like to be able to choose what abilities from each job to buff up. Looking forward to the changes, whatever they will be like.

[Anathiel]

I'm pretty much with Carpe on this one...I've been reading this post for quite some while and throwing in random comments, but he's voiced his opposition on this way better than I could ever have. Also Solracht's idea on combining the FF:T and WoW(sorry to word it like WoW, but we both know that's exactly what it is). I mean, I really like this idea, but it's WoW and they're trying really really hard not to be a WoW clone. If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.
Specialization within a current job the way that the Yoshi-P words not just in his current interviews, but the interviews he's done since he's taken over "command" of the dev team...is really that of Final Fantasy Tactics venue. Not to mention the majority of the team that worked on FF:XI and is currently working on FF:XIV worked in Final Fantasy Tactics. Obviously they're going to have very strong influences from those games.
Now, don't get me wrong...in my mind, the only way to appease everyone is to make a FF:T-esque way of UNLOCKING advance jobs, once they are unlocked the way to level these jobs up is to use a talent tree system. Having a baseline of abilities for all jobs, and then having the advance jobs have the talent tree's. It makes the advance jobs more powerful than baseline jobs, which was the case in any final fantasy (sorry for all those gladiator, marauder lovers out there, just the way it's always been) and allows you to customize your advance job the way you want it to be.
For instance, I get gladiator to rank 10, marauder to rank 10, and thaumaturge to rank 10 (I apologize for spelling) and now I can unlock Dark Knight (my favored class)...now that I've unlocked Dark Knight, when I level it up I get "talent points" which can be put into any of the tree's which I consider. For this particular conversation we will say Dark Knight has 3 tree's: Enfeebling, Tanking, Damage Dealing. Remember this is just for example...I always thought DRK could've been a tank if played properly lol ^^; Now, I unlock dark knight, in order to prevent over powering the advance jobs it would have to start at a higher level as to prevent getting too many talent tree points...actually talent tree points could just start with a higher level. Let's say rank 20, I don't have a diagram of how the tree's would play out, I'm just asking you to pretend along with me. Now, I want to cross spec so I'm playing a final fantasy XI style dark knight, half enfeebling and half damage dealing...you see where I'm going now? I hope so. But look, I hate the cookie cutter of paladins have to be tanks, or gladiators...so now I can respec my talent tree points to be a tank/enfeebler, changing my play style but still giving the game that overall sense of diversity that everyone is craving right now.

Now that I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't be a problem that any job could get the talent points and be able to "spec" in any way of playing. Um...Gladiator could have a talent tree spec open up at rank 20, the three specs being Spike Damage (two handed swords), Tanking (Sword and Shield), or DPS (Sword and shield with offense passive/active abilities).
Now most of the base classes we have now would have to be nerfed, and the talent tree's would be able to buff them back up again but at the cost of "I have a gladiator that can use black magic, white magic, pugilist, and archer abilities" which in my opinion should go anyways. Of course I think that the armory system should be gotten rid of, I don't like, never really did. If it's too much to get rid of, that's fine...I'm sure they could think of something, it's not my job to and I'm going to trust them (the dev team) on that one.

If I happen to find a diagram, or illustration that could better make my opinion known, then I will paste it in a new reply. If I just edit my current post it'll be lost in 5 minutes ^^;;;

[Shazaam]

I mean, I really like this idea, but it's WoW and they're trying really really hard not to be a WoW clone. If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.

If you knew SE, you would know that a direct progression from a base class to an advanced class was started in the first Final Fantasy. A black mage would become a Wizard. And thus have a different tree of talents(spells) to use.

Has WoW really become so large that people think that Final Fantasy is stealing from WoW and not vice-versa? Next thing you will be telling me that the new Zelda game stole it's main villain from an NPC in Oggrimar. or that Napoleon Dynamite was a total-ripoff of the Blood elves.... or that Lord of the Rings stole that wicked helm from the Lich King for Sauramon.

FFS, WoW steals EVERYTHING, and it made the game great. Let FF follow that path please.

[Punxsutawney]

Really well written, and you seemed to spend time thinking this through. I like alot of what you have written, as I too see a huge issue with letting every melee run around casting sacrifice and sacrifice II. Something has got to change, SE could get some great ideas from this post! I made post #150 depicting my ideas abouting fixing the armory system on the http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...es-quot/page15 discussion

[Kurokikaze]

Going to be browsing these boards a little less until the crisis in Japan comes to a conclusion. So if you don't see a reply from me don't worry I haven't given up on this idea and I'll be back to comment and reply to your posts. I just feel that discussions should be held until things are resolved.

On another note; I am very disgusted with the heartless people on the boards complaining about the servers being shutdown under these circumstances or using a crisis to further their own personal agenda. I mean really... just wow.

That is all. Please do not reply to this specific post and derail my thread.

[Carpe]

@Shazaam

Spec tree, sphere grid, job ranks, license board... take your pick, it's all the same concept with a different GUI.

So all the systems are exactly the same, with slight tweaks. It's a customization system, that promotes character advancement and growth... with a different font on each. Where the customization occurs and how much can be customized is up to the player in every single system.

They are all the same. Different graphics, different numbers, but inherently all the same.

First, you're oversimplifying the differences between these systems by just throwing them all under a broad category of "customization system". These systems are actually quite different and the differences matter: they affect how you are able to develop and customize your character and your game experience.

Second, I don't get the point you're trying to get across by even implying that their just the same thing. Why would you even be arguing that the OP's system is better than the current system in FFXIV if they are all "exactly" the same thing?

This isn't just a difference of "GUI", "graphics", and "font". These systems have different RULES, these rules determine where your character is going to start off, how and at what pace your character will be able to develop, how your characters abilities and skills will interact, what limits will you have on character development and customization.

Think again about each of these systems:spec tree, sphere grid, license board. They do things differently.

A sphere grid starts you off in a particular class role, you have to get through barriers to gain abilities from other classes. The system encourages you to follow one path by making it easier for you, but doesn't prevent you from going in another direction if you really want to, you'll just have to pass those imposed barriers to get there. In the endgame you can have your characters start to all resemble one another and lose class uniqueness. One character that's fully developed on the sphere grid is essentially the same as another that is fully developed.

The license board has a similar endgame: one character that has all the licenses is essentially the same as another character that has all the licenses. The only difference is they summon different espers and use different quickenings. The difference here is you all start in the middle and start to move outwards. There aren't any barriers here; your characters start off undefined and you can choose right away what you want to do with them.

In a spec tree everyone in a particular class starts off the same way. You may develop the same way for a while, but after a while you branch off into specializations. However your end game is limited in two ways: your class never blends into or borrow from other classes and you can't be "everything at once", you can't be equally effective as a tank/healer/dps because you only have a limited amount of points to apply.

Do you really think WOW would play the same if it had a license board rather than a spec tree?

Saying that these systems are the same is an insult to the developers that created these systems to try and bring you a unique game experience.

What you're saying is like saying that all thrillers are exactly the same thing because they are fall into the same genre. Sure, thrillers share some broad themes that make up their genre. Sure, some great writer can write a great thriller and everyone come along and start copying him so that the genre starts to feel "formulaic" and people think that that particular style=thriller. But another writer can always come along and break the mold and write a thriller but do it differently and get rid of that idea that a particular formula=genre. That doesn't mean that the original formula was bad or shouldn't be used again, it's just sometimes refreshing to see people go about things in a different way.

[Riv]

You've got it all figured out

That's more than i can say for SE.

[Laughlyn]

My 2gil....

I kinda liked the WoW talent / specialization tree idea.

However i certainly dont want SE to just rip that off.
Some kind of simmilarties would be cool.

Atleast the option to specialize each class from various option. (even if its point based)
The current system is well ok until you decide to level another class & you have
to wait for the cooldown on the points distribution before getting the
full potential use of the other class.

So ya im game for a variation of a Talent / Specialization tree.

Kinda like... CNJ gets to choose if he/she wants to specialize in using
Wands over Staffs, Debuffs over Nukes etc.

(now im using CNJ as refrence as BLM becasue of the possible future changes ofc.)
Not saying CNJ fits better as BLM than THM, but im as clueless as everyone else.

Suggestion: (just an example) Prolly been discussed/mentioned before.

Conjurer
''▼'''''''''''''''''''▼''
BLM ___ WHM

Thaumaturge
''▼'''''''''''''''''''''▼''
WHM ___ RDM

This way i wouldnt mind spending points on unlocking spells for my progression choice.
If you pick BLM patch, you have more Nuke & dot spells to choose from.

And Whm, obviously healing & Protection.
(But with a points system in place you could get some sub-spells for your BLM aswell from the whm Talent ree.)
The possibilty of spending points on other class talent trees could also be useful.
All you have to do is level another class, spend some Subskill Points to unlock some abilities from other classes and have the option to equip use those on your mage.
(Sounds really confusing now that i read my own post, could mean re-vamp of things in the UI. -.-)

I'd replace the slot points cost with talent tree points.
That way your only limitation to how many spells you can equip is dependent on your current class (rank) level.

When reading this it sounds like a complete wow ripoff, but things can be unique even with simmilarities.

- Sorry for any missed typos.

[Judge_Xero]

Thanks Kurokikaze. I'm glad you took the time to group all the collective ideas about this system. The FFT system would be a great addition to class uniqueness as well as filling the role of a Final Fantasy Hero.

Strong Points

- Players can still use the Base Classes to maintain their versatility in Solo play. Or they can Specialize into their favorite type of warrior for Party play or Behest.
- Creates many options for class expansion - Tier 1 Advanced (Dragoon R40) - Tier 2 Advance(Holy Dragoon R60) - Tier 3(Spirit of Kain R80)

My Preference for this System
- I like the idea that Advance Classes could be a combination of the Base Classes (Just like FFT) and Require a Base Rank of those Classes to unlock them (Marauder R30 + Pugilist R28 unlocks Berserker (Dual Axe, Decrese on Defense to Increase Attack)
It wont tie in as well with the Skill Tree, but I feel that it would feel more rewarding to gain access to the Class that you are working towards. Also, Future Advanced Classes could be combined to create higher Tier Classes (Red Mage + Black Mage = 's Summoner)

Unlocking Advanced Classes below R30 even if it requires 2 classes @ that Rank is too low. Through personal gameplay I've reached R20 on a Single Class in about 6 hours and R30 in about 10. I'm pretty sure it can be done alot faster. This will not allow new players enough time to experience the game as a base class before advancing.
Advance Classes should start @ R1 and Certain Skills should be learned through quests that tell more story about Eorza, and about what's special about said Class. (The wow Factor of new players seeing a Red Mage at a R10 Camp would be great)

Advanced Crafting Classes (what about DoH/DoL!?!?!)
Depending on how the story goes Advanced Crafting Classes could have a catchy title. Blacksmith R25 + Armorer R30 ='s Machinist. (Builds complicated Bombs and tools for war) Botanist R40 ='s Chocobo Breeder. Fisher R40='s Chocobo Caregiver. Miner R40='s Miner R40

That's all I have for now. See yas in a week or so. Don't forget to Donate to Red Cross.