[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[OmegaNovaios]

I think this thread's OP is a very good fix perhaps even better than this one.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...izations/page4

I think we should really consider both.

[Kurokikaze]

Those guys haven't answered that question.

[Joe_Cool]

Yes thats correct. Although you would not be locked into those classes. You still have the freedom to redo your talent points and spend them on a different advanced class for that base class.

Let's say your PUG was specced into a 50 MNK and you decided you wanted to play NIN instead. Assuming you have done the quest for NIN you would simply remove your talent points. When you remove all your points your stats go down to what they would be for 50 base PUG and your MNK specific traits/abilities will be unequipped. You then put those points into NIN and you can then play a 50 NIN.

It sounds weird if you're coming from FFXI only but this is standard fair for anyone thats played another MMO, namely WoW. Don't think of it as playing a different class altogether. You're taking your base class and changing your role. Your role in this case is NIN (tank).

Thanks for the kind comments all

The ranking up of several different classes to "unlock" advanced classes idea I like. But as Speeral stated, I hope they do something kind of different than talent trees.

Also would like to mention that I'm a fan of FFXI's merit point system

[Kurokikaze]

FFXI's merit point system is a talent tree in concept without the GUI. So is the Actions Menu in FFXIV. Same concept different looks.

[Joe_Cool]

What I mean is that I don't want there to be "points" to become a certain advanced class, in which you would have to reallocate points if you wanted to become a different advance class from that same "branch". I'd prefer that once you have the correct ranked classes and do some kind of quest, you could then become that advanced class by just changing your weapon and that advanced class would start out as rank 1. Maybe NIN could use Katanas.

You have some good ideas Kuro but I kind of prefer the FFT kind of style.

[Siatdiat]

You are right, arguing with fools like yourself is a waste of time. Imposing your will on others is a great method of argument. It's really engrossing and helps people to grow.

Show me exactly how I have imposed my will on anyone? I may have obviously implied that through your posting have shown me you aren't very intelligent. However, I did back up my claims. Something that you have not done, and since you cannot understand me or back up your claims, you are left with getting butthurt and telling me I'm stupid. Trust me, what you say cannot offend me.

Let me explain something about an opinion. When you think of something, and consider it for yourself, that is an opinion. Once you bring it out to the light of day and share it with others, you are making a claim. An argument arises when two people have differing claims. Two people can have different opinions, but if neither claims it in public or to others, or if one claims something and then the other doesn't really care here, then an argument will not occur. In an argument, when trying to prove your point, the idea is to propose ideas that have 2 things. The first part of proposing in an argument is premises. Premises when applied allow you to reach a conclusion. Usually the conclusion is your original idea, so the way you discuss things with people like an intelligent human being is to find premises to support your idea. If your premises are true, and the logic follows through to a logical conclusion for that train of thought, then the argument is both valid, and sound. Now we are dealing more with inductive arguments here, so... this means we are dealing with probability. This means even I am not arguing for certainty, but am I using logical thought and a proper method of supporting my ideas so I am arguing for what is probable. I am saying this method is most likely the better one for making an engaging and balanced game.

You are also claiming your idea is better, but basically ignoring every argument I make and just saying "well its just my opinion." But it isnt your opinion, you are on an open forum on the internet making that opinion public, claiming its truth to people who will likely disagree, and then getting mad that I mock you for not making the first valid argument to support yourself.

D&D is so bad btw, that's why no one plays it... it gives the player freedom, how dare they not be forced into rigid roles with rigid restrictions because poor baby Siat failed art class and can't come up with a character on his own. Hopefully you'll quit before your illogical, irrational, and inane banter spreads to others.

Actually, to be accurate here, D&D does have classes and roles. It is nothing like you claim about not being forced into roles. The game is also moderated by a real person who can use reason to make decisions, versus a game that relies on what can sensibly be programmed into it. There is little comparison between any pen and paper role playing game, and a massive multiplayer online adventure game. However, we cannot judge the quality of D&D campaigns we have played because that is based on an individual GM and how they run that campaign. But I digress since mentioning D&D at all was me being sarcastic. It has little to do with the actual discussion at hand and shows your lack of comprehension of obvious sarcasm.

Ironically, I have been nothing but logical and rational in this discussion. Being rude does not equal being illogical, irrational, or inane. Also being rude does not equal me forcing anything on anyone. It is simply honest contempt for someone foolish ranting endlessly with no valid point.

[Siatdiat]

I'll put it simply for you in big letters because apparently you're either a troll or a moron. Probably a mix of the both.

Let me give a response to this of the same value: Cool story bro.

THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE GAME MOST KNOW THIS. SCRAPPING SYSTEMS, ADDING RESTRICTIONS THAT FORCE YOU INTO X SETUP AND REMOVING THE ABILITY TO CREATE A CHARACTER BUT SIMPLY LEVELING A CLASS are not the answers. They are your narrow-minded stoneage answers.

Quote where I said there were no problems with the game now? Then, quote where myself or Kurokikzae suggested to scrap completely what is currently in the game? As far as I can tell by reading every page of this thread, and making sure I was clear on what was being suggested, the idea is to add this system to what is currently there. In other words there is no scrapping going on here. Are we suggesting adding a bit of restriction? Yes, because the game sorely needs it. The thing is you are unable to grasp exactly how lenient the system is and are baselessly attacking it. What you seem to be assuming is that it has at any time been suggested that you will be locked into anything permanently, and you can only come to that conclusion by either not reading or not being able to comprehend what you are reading. By setting abilities as a gladiator that allow you to tank better versus being a damage dealer, you are effectively a paladin just being called a gladiator. What is the difference in that and becoming a class called paladin at the same level? Its like someone mentioned earlier about a Solider becoming a Knight in an older FF game, its a name change but if the Knight was still called a soldier it wouldn't change anything. Classes are a problem that has been suggested by the majority of players in the players polls as being important to the current playerbase, specifically that people want the traditional roles. What is suggested here is actually more open ended than that old FF game and actually adds multiple paths and customization, and actually adds depth by adding passive traits based on which direction you go in. It is more versatile also than the sub job system from ffxi which restricted you to one main class and one sub class. The gladiator will still have access to other low level skills, there is just a limit being placed on the current almost total freedom.

Did you know there a re millions of people out there who thought final fantasy xi was a pile of shit? Crazy huh, you 500,000 can't figure that out can you?

What is your point here, what are you replying to?

Edit: Oh wise Siatit, I'd love to hear how it's any diff in a year or so when everyone has every CLASS leveled to 75 or 50 or 80 or 90 whatever the cap may be. Everyone can do everything. How terrible that will be.

What are you implying here? I understand you disagree and think that I'm wrong but you have yet to refute anything I have said. Like I said before, name calling and shit talking doesn't hurt me at all. However, when that is the full value of what you post, and there is no other substance other than saying I am wrong and you are right, and that its just because thats what you think, then I find your posts pathetic. Good job continually trying to get a rise out of me, I'll continue to shoot down your drivel and then let you rant back at me.

[OmegaNovaios]

So I just had this thought:

With this OP's setup essentially this is like FFXI w/o a sub job, w/ merits, and in place of a sub job every class has the option of 2 (maybe more) exclusive main jobs (which is essentially restricting every class to choosing between 2 exclusive sub jobs). As for the restricting everything to rank 20 actions or less this essentially makes any DPS actions pointless at Rank 50 by the the high rank DPS actions and making only curing/buffs useful which everyone would still have the same curing/buffing going on.

Please clarify if I'm wrong or if there is a fix to this.

Now I'm heavily leaning to this thread's OP.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

Now the difference here is that instead of putting a cap on actions from other classes there is still a sandbox like now, but essentially giving everyone a role thus creating uniqueness just like this idea does. Another difference is that instead of essentially having only 2 "sub jobs" to choose from you have any sub job to choose from. This forces roles in the same way (it gives you new EXCLUSIVE actions/traits/whatever), but the key effect here is you have more overall options.

Now the BIG POINT I got form this new OP that Kuro didn't include is to reduce the effect of skills (correct me if I'm wrong I haven't read every post there are too many pages). Which can be done for either idea. The example given in the Title Setup was to restrict Cure (from CON) at 100% as WHM, 75% as PLD, and 50% on any other Title. This fixes my previous problem (I think) of Curing (Lv. 20 restriction would be Cure II) from being used on every single class, or at least not as effectively perhaps even outweighing the use of it at Rank 50. Now what wouldn't change and would even make worse if implemented if DPS skills. Rank 35-50 DPS skills would by far outweigh any 1-20 Rank DPS skills and adding a penalty to this of let's say -50% there wouldn't even be a chance of using this so I think the rank restriction is flawed in this sense. Yet this does make a lot of actions exclusive. The only thing I can propose here is to have two classes to pull any action from in order to fix this and maybe even specializing in 1 advancement class for each class through a talent tree.

So with the Title System you can still equip every skill and it gives much more than 2 advancements to go into, it gives all advancements to go into which you can only choose 1. Now the Title System didn't mention a talent tree, but it could be added to it.

The key restriction to the Title System is heavily restricting every action individually based on your title/class which allows up to all rank 50 actions to be effectively "sandboxed" IMO. This can be implemented on either idea, but I prefer Title System here since you would get many more options from any title as opposed to very limited specializations (so I'd advise Rank 20 restrictions with 2 classes for a real proposal).

If you agree with my thoughts then we should decide whether Titles + Class or 2 Classes + rank 20 restrictions (w/ or w/o talent trees for either) is the better option.
If not please make a counter argument.

[Cairdeas]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

[OmegaNovaios]

They whole point of the XIV system is you can do what ever you want and level everything on one Character. Please stop trying to force the FFXI system into a WoW Shell and sell it to us as a fix when all that does it take away everything a lot of us enjoy about this game.

I thought you were for this proposal?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations

I simply pinned both proposals together stating that I think the Title System is better and that if Kuro's proposal can be better then it needs to be addressed.