[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[darkstarpoet1]

agreed we need to stop the fighting. i still feel when they install the new classes they should be advanced classes and just leave the base classes the way they are. once the advanced classes are issued they will have the class specific abilities that the other classes cannot use. have them be a you have to be a certain rank and complete a quest to unlock them. it is a step towards solving 3 issues. sure it will not solve the game, but just the first step in the right direction.

problem 1 it would add much needed content and something to strive for.

problem 2 it would give the ones that want designated roles to have their class that the base classes cannot use abilities from.

problem 3 it would stop both sides of the community from saying only the way one side wants to play is correct and everyone else is stupid for not agreeing.

[Kurokikaze]

Solves nothing as I have stated over and over.

I don't care what you THINK the current classes are (weapon specialists idgf)... If new classes are implemented then the classes we have now should be able to hold their ground against the new ones. Now you have to balance them against new content (new classes AND encounters) instead of evolving them into something better (specs/titles/idgf). The latter replaces and improves while the former adds shiny and hides stuff that doesn't work.

I don't care that the literal translation of Gladiator is a sword specialist. I'm going based off what they are now and what they have been called from their inception - "Classes".

I have not heard a single concrete answer on what happens to any of us that have leveled one of the current classes to 50. Are you trying to tell me that all that progress/grinding was for a few abilities and that I should go level one of the new classes to perform?

I had to bold it just so you don't have an excuse to miss it. It's a very important matter that I feel a lot of you are overlooking when you make these posts/suggestions.

Edit: As I said about the NIN comment... NIN was/is a great standalone class/job. The same cannot be said about LNC. It is currently just a class you level to 20.

[darkstarpoet1]

this game does not have nin atm and this is not the same game nor was it advertised as such.

[Judge_Xero]

I am still in favor of the FFT type system. The reason for this is... The "Armory System" still promotes tiresome grinding to gain abilities from multiple classes, to create the class you are wanting to play. As this is how I am playing now I don't have a big problem with it, except that the grinding could be replaced by Lore in the FFT system, through unlocking special skills during quests that tell about Eorza and your class. There are some that may say, well the Advanced Class system still requires leveling of classes you may not play, isn't that unnecessary grinding? Well, it wouldn't be as bad as getting to R50 Gladiator to get all your Tanking skills. Then you realize you now have to Rank Marauder to 48 for Defender II. Or if you decide you should Rank Conjurer to 50 so you could play a Paladin.
I do really like the 'idea' that you can level a bunch of different classes to combine skills and equip weapons to buff those traits, to in essence build your own class. But the FFT system could provide all of this and at the same time provide more story and direction for the game. It would create more limits than the, equip almost any skill you learn on any class system, but in the end most people will be making certain types of builds anyways.

(My example being Magic the Gathering. Out of thousands of cards that are released on a new Block, there's only a few (6-8ish) different types of decks that are played in Tournaments. The difference between decks of the same style ='s 3-4 cards. This is with the option of thousands of cards. So with the option of 100 abilities, how many builds will you see?)

Some people saying, what is the point of even discussing about Advanced Classes as there needs to be more content added. Advanced Classes would be a gripping and integral part of the extended content for the game.

[Kurokikaze]

There are some that may say, well the Advanced Class system still requires leveling of classes you may not play, isn't that unnecessary grinding?

Not with this system. If you want to play a WHM you know that you have to start as CON and upgrade after level 20. Advanced classes don't require grinding - they are the same level as the Base Class. What determines their strength is how many points are put into it.

Darkstar... I don't even know what to say... if that really is the reply you wish to go with.. Just do me a favor and stop posting in this thread please.

Oh and for those that missed it, I'm going to keep quoting it in bold until someone answers:

I have not heard a single concrete answer on what happens to any of us that have leveled one of the current classes to 50. Are you trying to tell me that all that progress/grinding was for a few abilities and that I should go level one of the new classes to perform?

[javid]

I am promoting weapon specialist. And we can all realistically succumb to the armory system prevailing. Read my earlier post for a class, title, merit system. It could still appease your FFT ideas to some extent. And its the lesser change to the current system that wouldn't cause all currently faithful players to stage a usurp. But for another game your tree idea would do great. Example if they ever make a new WOW (not an expansion) but new graphics and interface.

[Chinook]

+1 for the great work.


Re-reading this and some comments, and remembering the comments from Eorzeapedia interview:

Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing
classes.

I think they will simply introduce the traditional jobs as they raise the rank cap.

Example using your examples: You have Lancer to 50, you can now choose Dragoon and Samurai and continue ranking these new classes further with the same armoury system (might even keep the Lancer class available past 50, and the new classes would have access to previous pertaining Lancer abilities as a base).

It's pretty simple, and wouldn't break much from the current system, lore, people actual achievements, japanese "weapon" class names and what else.


Not saying that's what I'd prefer, but I speculate it will end up similar to this.


Edit: I guess you could add other requirements to unlock those new classes (available at rank 50 tho to not break people progress) to fit the many theories out there, like your FFT style other jobs rank requirements (i.e. PGL50 & WHM30 for Monk) and/or quests.

[javid]

Not with this system. If you want to play a WHM you know that you have to start as CON and upgrade after level 20. Advanced classes don't require grinding - they are the same level as the Base Class. What determines their strength is how many points are put into it.

Darkstar... I don't even know what to say... if that really is the reply you wish to go with.. Just do me a favor and stop posting in this thread please.

Oh and for those that missed it, I'm going to keep quoting it in bold until someone answers:

I didn't respond to this question directly. But in my description of a revamped system that question is address. So let me make it plane and the other details can be found on my from my first post (page 10 javid 5:41) to my current.

-all classes but gutted of their abilities/traits for the most part. Leaving only weapon specify abilities like speed surge.
To compensate for the first wave of players that already have high ranking classes, for each ability/trait removed a certain amount of class specific guild marks (merit) be given that can be later applied.

-However the same abilities/traits that were removed from the classes are now allotted to jobs (titles-drk,whm,bst,etc)
Example Gla would lose the ability to provoke and that ability would now be assigned to war & pld which a pld/gla or war/gla could use. Though I am a proponent for liberty, I will advocate for steep restrictions on allowing a pld job (title) to use drk job (title) abilities/traits. Similar to XI the abilities that will be allowed to cross jobs (titles) should be 1/2-3/5 power. So no 5 blm main job using whm 5 abilities.

-The guild marks (merit system) would be applicable both the the classes (weapon specialist) and/or the jobs (titles). Example: a adventure with a rdm/con could choose to add guild marks to cure potency and/or unlock slow III. The first was a trait increasing an inherent con ability the second was unlocking a classic rdm ability.

-Lastly similar to xi guild marks (merit) attributed to specific classes (weapon specialist) limit your ability to complete the ability/trait tree of other classes (weapon specialist). However anything can be undone WITH PENALTY. This will make the indecisive less fickle and the season adventure have something new to work for.
Example: take a full guild mark (merit) rank 50 gla (sword specialist). Chose to max sword haste (+20% sword haste), max sword weaponskill attack bonus (+25% sword ws bonus) and max chance of parry (+?% increase in sword parry). This person's sword specialty would work wonders for ninja, sam, pld, dnc, and rdm (sword and shield version). If she got bored of using gla being the base weapon specialist for her current classes, and wanted to full merit, say PUG. She could reset her GLA guild marks (merits) so she could earn and allocate new guild marks (merits) onto PUG (hand-to-hand weapon specialist).

[Kurokikaze]

^ you do realize thats more or less my system except that you're calling Specs -> Titles and Base Classes -> Weapon Specialists. In the end, you're doing the exact same thing. So in that regard, we agree on the concept just not the names... Also, that question was directed at the other guys.

Go back, take a deep breath, re-read the OP. Now every time you see the words Specs and Base Classes switch it out for Titles and Weapon Specialists. Maybe we don't agree fully on Talent Trees (I get that. Its more of a concept thing).

Every single thing you've "pointed" out I've pretty much covered in the OP... So I'm not sure why we're even in disagreement. Are those WoW (and other MMO) terms that scary?

Example: take a full guild mark (merit) rank 50 gla (sword specialist). Chose to max sword haste (+20% sword haste), max sword weaponskill attack bonus (+25% sword ws bonus) and max chance of parry (+?% increase in sword parry). This person's sword specialty would work wonders for ninja, sam, pld, dnc, and rdm (sword and shield version). If she got bored of using gla being the base weapon specialist for her current classes, and wanted to full merit, say PUG. She could reset her GLA guild marks (merits) so she could earn and allocate new guild marks (merits) onto PUG (hand-to-hand weapon specialist).

Erm... If I understand this part correctly the Base Class have points that help other classes (I get this). Then you go onto say that the person can take all their GLA points and dump into PUG. Correct?

Yeah that part makes no sense. Look at my sig, look at other people's sigs here. Now re-read the question I asked earlier, which you think you answered, and tell me how that works in this scenario. Do you understand what I mean? You're VOIDING people's current progress. Your scenario would never be implemented because THAT would make people really stop playing the game. The moment SE tells me that GLA/ARC/LNC/etc have no purpose except for abilities and that I have to level a new class is the day I put the nail on the coffin on this game.

Just in case you cant find it:

I have not heard a single concrete answer on what happens to any of us that have leveled one of the current classes to 50. Are you trying to tell me that all that progress/grinding was for a few abilities and that I should go level one of the new classes to perform?

[Seikninkuru]

Yes I agree, but the difference here is that NIN was actually a great job. LNC and the rest of the classes in this game are so bland/bad. They need to be able to stand on its own... and please don't say that "its so you can mix-match" - thats just grasping at straws. A class shouldn't need to pull from others to be good - I agree that it'll make them better, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Thank you Napalmninja.

If you [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] treated the weapons as weapon skills rather than classes 99% of your complaints would be solved. Your refusal to adopt any system other than class = how you play is the root of your -perceived problem.