Do Something About Duty Finder Already

[Bourne_Endeavor]

It maybe helps them understand how much they have to improve, it is not a bad thing:the battles you lose are the ones that helps you more on improve.

The issues is, people nowadays wants only winners in their parties. But to be a winner, you need bite the dust first.

... through third parties and websites. While challenging players is always the best solution, the game does a piss poor job bracing them for the sudden incline. You cannot expect people to go from entirely faceroll content to stuff where if they aren't timing their cooldowns properly or pre-casting heals, they'll wipe the party. A new Dragoon won't know the skill speed sweet spot is at 625 and 651. Why would they? The game never tells you at what point skill speed actually benefits or hinders your GCD.

They've acknowledged the skill gap between players... goodness, 3.3 already? Probably even earlier.

And from what it appears, they do attempt to push the bottom up - by lowering the skill floor for jobs. That's where ideas like permanent Enochian come from. The goal will be to reduce the performance gap with the given skill gap.
And I can already imagine some people here stomping their foot because that's not how they're supposed to go about it.

And that is a decent start. It won't, however, be a solution if content difficulties varies so significantly. People should be learning the necessity of cooldowns and support abilities in dungeons and be putting them into practice by extremes. They don't because the only way you'll even need cooldown as a tank is if you pull the entire room. Do small pulls in Xelphatol and I dare say you wouldn't even need a healer. You bring the bottom up by gradually introducing reasonable skill thresholds and asking they meet these new requirements. Keep it a steady incline so players don't feel overwhelmed and then unleash harder stuff. Currently, FFXIV makes the majority of its content a complete joke, abruptly pushes you with Extremes and then murders you come Savage.

I do want to emphasis normal modes shouldn't be some grueling test of endurance like Savage can be. But there is a middle ground the devs really haven't explored. I come back to Xelphatol/Gubal Hard a lot, however they serve a great example. What incentive do people have to upgrade their gear when the most recent dungeons (as of 3.4) only asked for gear released when Heavensward first launched over a year prior?

[Kaethra]

Wildstar - every time I see someone asking for this, I think Wildstar. Remember how that ended up?

Wildstar was a crappy game long before you got to the first dungeon. They literally couldn't make it worse than it was level 1-20.

Segregating players will prevent many of these threads. Threads will pop up, as lesser capable players will want max level gear but can't get passed mid-tier. But that means the system works. WoW: Legion did this. EQ did it in their tier'd content. And several others.

You picked a MMO in your example that was bad out the gate. The ET Atari game has a better reputation for gameplay than Wildstar.

A new Dragoon won't know the skill speed sweet spot is at 625 and 651.

I'd wager the developer who designed the Dragoon job doesn't know that either. How is he supposed to get the UI coder to express that info to the newbie when he himself doesn't even know?

You all keep going off the assumption that devs are the Uber-Masters of their game. They're not. They put some abilities together. See if they work, and when making balancing passes they tweak a few things back and see if its roughly where it looks somewhat decent. And even then, they don't always get it right. They're few, players are many. We theorycraft, they tweak based on metrics. We focus on singular encounters, they try to make the 1-60 work 'well enough'. There's NO way they could have as much knowledge or focus as the playerbase.

Here's how it works (in current expansion, assume they start tonight):

1. Newbie makes a character
2. Gets it to a point where they do dungeons.
3. They get stuff and level some more.
4. Eventually get to 60* and unlock some stuff.
5. They use whatever they've figured out on their own until they reach a roadblock.

The roadblock is when they reach content they cannot complete because of ignorance. They're either causing wipes because of it, or players are kicking them.
This is the moment of truth. They either 'get it' or don't. If they 'get it' and realize they're doing something wrong. They'll either ask questions, seek advice, read guides, or reflect on their own gameplay, maybe all of the above.

If they do this, they will improve and overcome the roadblock.

If not. Then they will likely stop at that point and do things they know they can do. They might quit. They might even blame the 'elitists' who put the roadblock up.

*Sometimes the roadblock comes before 60.

But in either case, its up to the player in question. All of us have realized we need to either step back and reflect on what we were doing. None of us got it right the first time. Many of us took our observations, parses, and experiences and compared them with others'. That's how you got that 'sweet spot' for dragoons. No Dev said, "let's make the sweet spot X and see if the players can figure it out" while twirling mustaches. That didn't happen. Its just the way the algorithm came out.

But because of that reflection, it allowed us to adapt, adjust, and improvise future situations. Its why we can go into a new dungeon, and figure out the mechanics on the fly. Not only do we perform the movements required, we understand why we want to go left instead of right, when to preheal, and when to not execute an assassinate so we don't get stuck in a lethal AoE.

No tutorial, tooltip, or developer insight can teach any of that. Only the player can on themselves. They either 'get it' or they don't.

If they don't get it, then they just don't. Just doesn't happen. Just like basketball. Not everyone can shoot a 3-pt shot. Some with enough practice can, but applying it in an actual game is another story. Some can, some can't.

[Tracewood]

Wow... how can anyone get that far without unlocking your job? Reminds me of this Arcanist, yest, an Arcanist who used to put up a PF about going through story mode because of RP reasons. Not sure what happened to that person. (This before cross PF)

[Kaethra]

Wow... how can anyone get that far without unlocking your job? Reminds me of this Arcanist, yest, an Arcanist who used to put up a PF about going through story mode because of RP reasons. Not sure what happened to that person. (This before cross PF)

Who knows?

I was in a group about two weeks ago in a 38 dungeon with a Marauder. I asked where their soulstone was. They said they tried putting it on but wouldn't let them (can't switch jobs/class in DF). So they DID have the job quest done. They left on their own out of embarrassment.

Why they were running around without it is anyone's guess. Maybe to use cure and protect or whatnot. Not my business. Though make sure you've got your stone in when you queue at least.

[Ririta]

I do want to emphasis normal modes shouldn't be some grueling test of endurance like Savage can be. But there is a middle ground the devs really haven't explored. I come back to Xelphatol/Gubal Hard a lot, however they serve a great example. What incentive do people have to upgrade their gear when the most recent dungeons (as of 3.4) only asked for gear released when Heavensward first launched over a year prior?

If it wasn't like this then catching up would be too painful and grindy. Early Heavensward dungeons offers like 30 Lore.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You all keep going off the assumption that devs are the Uber-Masters of their game.

I am not. The devs cannot account for very variable imagine nor did I insinuate that were the issue; rather it's the sheer lack of overall balance and abrupt gap in between content tiers. The Aery and Vault are noticeably harder than nearly every single Expert dungeon released thereafter. "Uber-mastery" of the game is not required to cite that as a conscious decision to reduce difficulty. The result is played less equip for harder content. Should they take it upon themselves to improve? Absolutely. But they should not be wholly dependent on third party websites to learn what the game ought to teach. As per my example, a tank shouldn't have to pull the room to actually feel like a tank; the healer shouldn't be entirely idle unless they DPS, and yet both do/are because content simply does not incentives needing those skills until extreme primals.

Players shouldn't be learning their openers when they step into Zurvan EX. They ought to be putting to practice what was taught and encouraged in the normal mode. Instead, it's a faceroll you can press 123 and still clear.

If it wasn't like this then catching up would be too painful and grindy. Early Heavensward dungeons offers like 30 Lore.

You can catch up within a week or less right now. Making that a little less easy isn't the end of the world, especially if it incentives better play in the long term. Regardless, I fail to see how adjusting content to be less of a complete faceroll makes it "too painful"? Is it too much to ask people not be able to chain pull a dungeon at release without even using a cooldown? Not to mention, the current tomestones are always added to old dungeons and trials. That gives returning players a leg up on progression.

[Kassaiemi]

there's a lot going on in this thread but i just want to throw in my two cents on a few things i saw repeated or that stood out:

1.) "teach players to be better"
it's really amusing that people say this in a thread where multiple people unironically used "my sub, my play" as a defense.

2.) "this is a western problem!"
yes, it's a western problem, because most japanese players try their best to do well. hell, the japanese use raid finder actively while content is relevant and try to teach new players how to do fights without just disbanding as soon as they see a new player bonus message pop up.

3.) "call them out"
and get reported because it's technically harassment no matter how nicely you word it (this actually happened to someone i know who attempted to help someone).

4.) "just kick them"
four. hour. cooldown.

nobody has to be perfect, but there's an absolute, bare minimum where it would be nice if you're actually using your abilities. damage buffs, dots, etc.

[Zhamkyong]

3.) "call them out"
and get reported because it's technically harassment no matter how nicely you word it (this actually happened to someone i know who attempted to help someone).

Wait, is this true? Are players who tried to help nicely getting reported for harassment?

[Kassaiemi]

Wait, is this true? Are players who tried to help nicely getting reported for harassment?

happened to a friend, not me, but he said he had a chat with a gm over it.

[SenorPatty]

Wait, is this true? Are players who tried to help nicely getting reported for harassment?

It happens. Tempers flare and before you know it, your hand gets bitten.