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  1. #1
    Player
    Ryel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    610
    Character
    Ryel Altaria
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Problem is, this "weight" is for the beholder to decide. Some people would not accept anything below the optimal result, even if a sub-optimal could do well "enough". Jobs were rejected for that, "bad" itemization is frowned upon for that, and, most importantly, customization on characters and items is rejected for that.
    "weight" Is not subjective unless a PF is specific and nobody gets removed for being "x" class in dungeons.

    Meeting proper minimum ilvl for a dungeon or at the very least keeping up with gear appropriate for the level of content isn't really that hard of a concept. Same goes for hitting more than 3 buttons and not being an ice mage etc.

    What some players still don't understand is that there is very little choice when it comes to gear options and it's by developer design. They intentionally have made stats a non-choice so if you're a DPS stacking VIT or a tank stacking DEX you're probably doing it wrong and yeah I'd be surprised if someone didn't say something at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    If "carrying their own weight" was shared by everyone, then the game could be enhanced a lot. That was one of the purpose of Stone, Sky, Sea, regarding parsers. SSS does not give a number, it gives you a threshold. If you're above, you're able to do your part DPS wise. If you fail in content, it's because you're still learning the mechanics, not your rotation.
    While this is mostly true If we're talking about things like primals or raids the case is often players joining parties they aren't ready for.

    If you are still learning a fight's mechanics don't join a farm party. Yet all too often we have players complaining that they've been kicked for x or y reason when the reality is as simple as they joined a group on content they weren't ready for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    And besides, if you look at the recent "Soar Skip" debacle, it goes even deeper. Winning Zurvan EX without skipping Soar is not a DPS issue at all. Yet, many PF parties will kick you if you fail the skip.
    Then make one?

    No, seriously. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

    If players really have an issue with the skip soar debate (which honestly doesn't require a massive amount of DPS to begin with) then make a party. Boot up the PF and create a "Soar learning party" or "Skipping soar not required party" and I promise you it will fill. It may not fill as fast as the others but it will fill eventually.

    The vast majority of "all these PF's require X" arguments could easily be solved by players starting their own PF but many of them simply do not want to, regardless of the fact that it requires far more time and effort to create a thread on the forums complaining about it than it does filling a PF description.
    (7)

  2. #2
    Player Kosmos992k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,349
    Character
    Kosmos Meishou
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    ...
    Edit : I'm removing this post because it's clear I completely mis-understood what the posters intent was. My apologies.

    **mega snip**
    (1)
    Last edited by Kosmos992k; 03-16-2017 at 02:38 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Miste's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,720
    Character
    Miste Vaer
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosmos992k View Post
    Please stop trying to reverse the role of Duty Finder and Party Finder.
    The person you quoted was talking about Zurvan EX.

    Zurvan EX is not in the Duty Finder. You can only PF a full group or try Raid Finder (but no one usually uses the Raid Finder for it since most groups only go with one tank and the RF forces two)

    So I think you might be misunderstanding.
    (4)
    Last edited by Miste; 03-16-2017 at 02:04 AM.

  4. #4
    Player Kosmos992k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,349
    Character
    Kosmos Meishou
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Miste View Post
    The person you quoted was talking about Zurvan EX.

    Zurvan EX is not in the Duty Finder. You can only PF a full group or try Raid Finder (but no one usually uses the Raid Finder for it since most groups only go with one tank and the RF forces two)

    So I think you might be misunderstanding.
    Possibly, I wasn't so much responding to the specific point of Zurvan EX as I was the sentiment behind the post, which seemed to be that Duty Finder is there for experienced players and Party Finder is there for others.

    I wasn't talking so much about skipping Soar in Zurvan EX as I was about the philosophy of how to use Duty Finder vs Party Finder.
    (0)

  5. 03-16-2017 02:33 AM
    Reason
    Misunderstanding cleared up. Post servers no further purpose.

  6. #6
    Player Kosmos992k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,349
    Character
    Kosmos Meishou
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    Please make sure you read carefully so there's no further misunderstanding.
    I have indeed done so, and will be removing my post, since it's not relative to this discussion.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    Reynhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,605
    Character
    Reynhart Kristensen
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    Meeting proper minimum ilvl for a dungeon or at the very least keeping up with gear appropriate for the level of content isn't really that hard of a concept. Same goes for hitting more than 3 buttons and not being an ice mage etc.
    People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    They intentionally have made stats a non-choice
    They also have made secondary stats pitifully weak compared to main stats. As a tank you could stack all the parry you can, and your overall DPS would barely suffers. Yes, you can be kicked for not wanting to use Grade V materia on intermediate gear (True story)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    If you are still learning a fight's mechanics don't join a farm party.
    If we're in a learning party (Either by party or by raid finder specifically set to welcome first timers) don't throw the lack of DPS when 2 minutes into the fight when we're still learning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryel View Post
    Then make one?
    Will it suddenly change the mentality of all parties that plays that way ? When did "not skipping Soar" became "not being able to carry one's weight through the content" ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kosmos992k View Post
    which seemed to be that Duty Finder is there for experienced players and Party Finder is there for others.
    Since you can't set any requirement in the Duty Finder, you have to accept who the game throws at you. If you have higher expectations, Party Finder is there so that you can clearly express them and people will be fully aware of that.
    (1)
    Last edited by Reynhart; 03-16-2017 at 06:59 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    alimdia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    2,064
    Character
    Ali Lifesaver
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"
    Hyperboles aren't gonna reinforce your stance, you know very well that attitude isn't as common as you make it out to be, nearly all DF complaints are because of DPS doing less damage than tanks (aka going afk mid fight very often) and healers acting like heal bots, very few people care about min maxing in DF.
    (6)

  9. #9
    Player
    GeminiXIV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    23
    Character
    Elysen Noct
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Snip
    Youre using alot of extreme examples that rarely ever happen.

    Also the whole Soar issue isnt something you should be concerned about when making your own party. I dont even know why wanting to skip Soar bothers people. Its the easiest thing to skip.
    (4)

  10. #10
    Player
    Ryel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    610
    Character
    Ryel Altaria
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"

    They also have made secondary stats pitifully weak compared to main stats. As a tank you could stack all the parry you can, and your overall DPS would barely suffers. Yes, you can be kicked for not wanting to use Grade V materia on intermediate gear (True story)
    Your "truth" is just the opposite.

    You need look no further than this very forum to see the content of threads from players who have been kicked, or to other threads containing screenshots posted of various people entering dungeons in gear that is sometimes over 100 ilvls under what they should be wearing or containing the wrong primary stat.

    A tank can stack all the parry they want, yes but luckily all parry gear also has VIT on it. Stacking all DEX or INT gear however would be a terrible choice just as it would be for a DPS to stack VIT gear and there are cases where players do exactly that to fudge ilvl.

    Additionally according to the GM guidelines you can be kicked for just about anything as far as "differences in playstyle" are concerned but you aren't likely to be kicked from anything short of raids for lack of melds and even then it isn't likely you're going to be kicked for melding IV's instead of V's

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    If we're in a learning party (Either by party or by raid finder specifically set to welcome first timers) don't throw the lack of DPS when 2 minutes into the fight when we're still learning.
    You can still be learning and be massively below where you should be.

    If you are in a learning party and your damage is low enough to hinder the progression of the 7 others in the party and they wish to remove you as to increase their odds (unlikely but possible), you cant force them to continue wanting to play with you.

    Eat the kick and move on.

    Maybe you get better and it doesn't happen again? Maybe you weren't really the problem and it was just that party? It happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Will it suddenly change the mentality of all parties that plays that way ? When did "not skipping Soar" became "not being able to carry one's weight through the content" ?
    Why does it have to change the mentality of all parties playing that way?

    Are you trying to change the way every single person plays or are you trying to clear / farm the content?

    Once again go make that "Skipping soar not required" party or that "Soar learning" party let it fill with people who dont care about skipping soar; get your kills, your weapons, and your bird and have a good time.

    Who cares what the other parties are doing? Is it up to you or anyone else to police the entire PF?

    If enough like minded players decide that they dont care about soar and wish to put up PFs for it then the PF will be full of those parties.

    It really is that simple.
    (7)
    Last edited by Ryel; 03-16-2017 at 07:32 AM.

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