4.0 tank buff ability changes, please don't do this

[Ultimatecalibur]

People say that homogenization isn't really ideal and I agree with that, but seeing how they've shot themselves in the foot with the balance issue, it could be their only way out in my opinion.

This isn't homogenization. Its moving a common must have cooldown from the individual job skill list to the role skill list.

Merging Rampart/Shadowskin/Foresight into one role skill frees up 1 ability and 1 trait slot for all 3 jobs which can have actual unique distinct abilities in those slots.
Shifting Provoke and Convalescence to the role skill list opens up 1 trait and 2 more ability slots for Paladin.

The question should be: "What unique things are they going to add to each job in these slots?"

Will freeing up 3 ability slots mean that Paladin can have its own AoE attack, HP Shield spell and another way of protecting the party pre-50?

[EusisLandale]

This isn't homogenization. Its moving a common must have cooldown from the individual job skill list to the role skill list.

The problem with this idea is the more things they just turn into a universal button to make way for new things at the level is that it's still not considering their plan to keep our button count the same.
Three new things to press before even hitting 50, then whatever it is they're adding in 61-70. What are they cutting?
So far the only button anyone is suggesting be actually cut is Foresight. It has no actual similarities to Rampart/Shadowskin, and is in fact currently able to be used along side them, so just suddenly deciding it's the same as them is one cut. That's it. Still need two more cuts just for Provoke and Convalescence as you're suggesting. Still need a few more cuts for 61-70 stuff.
Telling us they're going to turn functionally identical buttons into the same button in name tells us nothing about what they're actually going to do. -20% taken button is still -20% taken button.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The problem with this idea is the more things they just turn into a universal button to make way for new things at the level is that it's still not considering their plan to keep our button count the same.

You are confusing things. They said to different things that they will be moving must have skills (such as Provoke and Rampart/Shadowskin) to a Role skill list and that they will be reducing button bloat by replacing old abilities with higher level abilities. Traits will likely be changing how some current abilities work. We will not be getting 5 new abilities in 61 to 70 like we did 51 to 60. We will likely be getting only 1 or 2 new abilities with the rest of the improvements being from existing abilities upgraded by traits.

The Paladin is cutting these skills that go in the 5 cross class skill slots:

• Cure
• Foresight
• Skull Sunder
• Fracture
• Protect
• Bloodbath
• Raise
• Mercy Stroke
• Stoneskin

Warrior is cutting these skills that go in those 5 slots:

• Savage Blade
• Featherfoot
• Flash
• Second Wind
• Convalescence
• Haymaker
• Internal Release
• Provoke
• Awareness
• Mantra

Dark Knight is cutting these skills that go in those 5 slots:

• Foresight
• Skull Sunder
• Fracture
• Bloodbath
• Mercy Stroke
• Savage Blade
• Flash
• Convalescence
• Provoke
• Awareness

All 3 Tanks are replaced those skills with a Role Skill list likely containing these and possibly other abilities and they are intending that we will switch stuff out based on the needs of content:

• Provoke (mentioned in the announcement)
• Rampart/Shadowskin (mentioned in the Korean Live Letter)
• Convalescence (likely)
• Awareness (likely)
• Bloodbath (possibly)
• Mercy Stroke (possibly)

4 of these abilities are currently Gladiator/Paladin abilities. Moving these from the Gladiator/Paladin skill list to the Role Skill list will free up 4 ability slots and 2 trait slots.

[EusisLandale]

A whole ton of assumptions with little evidence.

Outside of the few things specifically stated, what proof do you have to any of that? How do you know we're only getting 1-2 skills 61-70? How do you know they're just going to be unloading a ton of traits into things to change them up? How do you know that Foresight is going to be gone completely? That Reddit speculation, where most people seem to be getting the idea that it's getting axed and fused to Rampart/Shadowskin, page even updated pointing out that they shouldn't have made that speculation due to them not being the same thing but being unaware of it due to not even being a tank.
They aren't telling us anything of value and the things that would be most helpful are what they're being most vague on.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Snip.

First off, Yoshi-P was the one who said that talked about limiting button bloat by replacing old abilities with new ones to maintain roughly the same amount of buttons. The changes to Thunder I/Thunder II/Thunder III demonstrate this mentality. He also said that tying all 51 to 60 abilities to Job Quests limited them and that in SB not all new skills/trait gain will be limited by Job Quest and some of them will be gained just by leveling.

Second, Foresight is likely gone because it fills the same design space as Rampart/Shadowskin: a 20s defensive buff with a 90s cooldown. Rampart/Shadowskin (-20% damage for 20s every 90s) effect seem to have been classified as "a skill that each existing and future tank must have access to in their skill pool" just like Provoke was early on. Rampart/Shadowskin becoming a Role skill means that Warriors do not need to have Foresight. Even though it works slightly different it is still in the same design space. Removing it frees up that design space that can be used to make Warrior more distinct. Foresight was also causing problems even though most players were not aware of them. Ever notice that def/mdef growth ground from 20/30 points every 10 ilevels from i150 to i210 to a near halt of 4 points per 10 ilevels at i215? Due to being tied to def, Foresight varied in effectiveness depending on gear ilevel.

Third the speculation was not necessarily wrong. The OP got blasted because many posters don't really get design or what the dev team is trying to do. Just because Foresight is slightly different than Rampart/Shadowskin doesn't mean that it is not getting replaced by role skill Rampart/Shadowskin.

[Fernosaur]

The question should be: "What unique things are they going to add to each job in these slots?"

Will freeing up 3 ability slots mean that Paladin can have its own AoE attack, HP Shield spell and another way of protecting the party pre-50?

I agree with this. I think if anything, these changes will leave DRK and WAR feeling more or less the same (save for whatever incoming nerfs they have prepared for WAR), but it will help Paladin a little bit by giving them things that actually build a much-needed class identity while not necessarily adding more skills than they already have. Cross-class skills were so useless for PLD that you ended up just having them there, and this isn't counting Tempered Will and Cover, which are almost never used. As much as I love Tempered Will and would hate to see it go, I think the aim for this change to free up skill slots is to give PLD some utility that is actually useful, making the job gain more from cross-role skills, and maybe open up new skill slots to fix some of the job's problems, like lack of AoE and TP issues.

This might benefit DRK in the long run too, perhaps by giving them better enmity generation in single target scenarios.

The aim of this kind of change is something that could potentially help WHM in the same vein, since they are the healer role that gains the least out of cross-class skills. Putting Provoke and Cleric Stance in the cross-role skill list will probably free up something to hopefully give WHM some of the much needed MP management, mitigation or utility the job is lacking right now.

[Genis94]

This isn't homogenization. Its moving a common must have cooldown from the individual job skill list to the role skill list.

Merging Rampart/Shadowskin/Foresight into one role skill frees up 1 ability and 1 trait slot for all 3 jobs which can have actual unique distinct abilities in those slots.
Shifting Provoke and Convalescence to the role skill list opens up 1 trait and 2 more ability slots for Paladin.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Current encounters have several tank busters with timing that requires you to use two cooldowns to mitigate given the spacing between them, 3 in some circumstances, which is where your BIG cooldown comes in. So merging it into a baked in additional cooldown rather than a cross class is perfectly fine.

[CafPow]

You guy understand that foresight works completely different than rampart/shadowskin and is practically useless?
It reduces about 7% physical damage only....
Just sayin...

[ADVSS]

You guy understand that foresight works completely different than rampart/shadowskin and is practically useless?
It reduces about 7% physical damage only....
Just sayin...

I was trying to be nice, but youre right, like i said if it got deleted nothing would be missed

[CafPow]

Ouh sry, i did a typo. I was meant to say "you guys" in general, as a reaction to the discussion that seems to compare an Apple (shadowskin / rampart) with a pear (foresight)
Nothing personal ^^


@deathgiver
I don't believe that it's that much but even it is... still pretty damn useless cause only physical damage...
"muh tankbuster" comes in magic. You'll need inner beast or vengeance, that is what makes WAR strong. Not foresight. ^^