Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

[Cordie]

This chart is all sorts of irrelevant.

Here are the things it doesn't take into account.

Healers get faster queues in 8 man content with 1 tank, 1 tank queues suck for 8 man content. the difference in the odds make up for that difference.

Yes, it's 100% that you have 2 healers in 8 man DF groups, and it's not 100% that you will have two BRD/MCH but it's also very likely that the healer has the piece you want so you're still rolling Need unopposed. and this gets more and more true the later you are into a patch cycle.

Tanks and Healers have more stress, when they get better queue times and better rates for stuff it's because they are willing to take the extra responsibility.

SLOPPYYYY
Read the title first.

It takes everything into account. Whether X has Y item and will not roll again is not known to you, and you have no valid or credible reason to expect so.

and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

It is all there.
The only assumption is a 1/(number of players allowed to need) probability of winning a lot, to ensure maximum uncertainty.

[SendohJin]

It takes everything into account. Whether X has Y item and will not roll again is not known to you, and you have no valid or credible reason to expect so.

and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

[Bloody]

Then you should be happy if the "need" button is unlocked for everyone: you can roll need on other roles' items too.

I roll on everything.

I think you need to re-label the chart to be specific in the fact that your percentages factor in a hypothetically equal drop chance first before the ability to need is factored in.

Second, bardaboo rolling on everything does NOT mean there is agreement with your suggestion to dress up the OP's request as everyone can Need. Your are twisting words to fit your logic. If I were to roll Greed on everything I can't Need, it means I'd like the gear if the person who it is designed for doesn't want it, not that I think all gear should be equally Needable. You basically tried to compare apples and oranges.

To reiterate my initial response to the thread:

The system is designed to give someone who chooses to undertake a specific class/role priority access to gear useable by that class/role as a reward for choosing to undertake that class/role.

A tangential bonus to that is the increase in players on tank and healer roles when they are hunting for gear related to that role, improving (if only slightly) the abysmal DPS queues. I won't claim it's some huge godsend of an improvement, but when people truly want something, they'll actually put the effort in to get it (unless they like whining and pouting, then they will get nothing done until they get over it and put in effort).

[Cordie]

Shouldn't PLD, WAR, DRK, WHM, SCH and AST get 100% the item after rolling Need in a light party?

You are essentially asking: "Shouldn't they get 100% after getting the item?"

You need to factor in the probability of seeing an item:
there are 7 types of left-side gear and 5 types of accessories.

I think you need to re-label the chart to be specific in the fact that your percentages factor in a hypothetically equal drop chance first before the ability to need is factored in.

Why would you assume otherwise? Go in blind, this is what to expect.
"After" rolling need , because you need to account for others potentially rolling need.
If the item type doesn't appear you will get null when "rolling need" (you can't even roll as a matter of fact).

Second, bardaboo rolling on everything does NOT mean there is agreement with your suggestion to dress up the OP's request as everyone can Need. Your attempts to twist words to fit your logic need some work. If I were to roll Greed on everything I can't Need, it means I'd like the gear if the person who it is designed for doesn't want it, not that I think all gear should be equally Needable. You basically tried to compare apples and oranges.

It's not dressing-up the OP's request. It's a suggestion satisfying both sides.
If you were to roll Greed on everything you can't Need you have a priori given up on the thought of all gear being equally Needable. There's no comparison for you there.

The system is designed to give someone who chooses to undertake a specific class/role priority access to gear useable by that class/role as a reward for choosing to undertake that class/role.

And it is skewed.

[bardaboo]

Yeah. I roll need on everything i can. But i don't wine about not being able to roll need on everything. When i roll need i know it's a guarantee.
And again. "Net loss" gc seals are a bonus on top of the tomes. I'm not running the dungeons specifically for tomes. It's called multitasking.

""It seems quite obvious to me. You also ignored it to drag the issue off-topic ("how to gear-up your class", as if it would prioritize you roll over others').

Honestly, anything less than 800-1000 seals per minute is a net loss, if you are really farming seals. Tome caps are too easy to achieve anyways.

This is all fine and tangential to the topic, and perhaps better suited for a different thread (I've seen some asking about ways to gear up; this is not one of them).[/QUOTE]

Once again NO ANSWER from you on why you need i245 gear. I ignored nothing
If my way of gearing up isn't optimal i don't know how you think gearing up in 245 dungeon gear is better. Like seriously i think one of us ignored that burned toast smell for far too long.
you take everything out of context, avoid direct questions and probably think that if i stop trying to talk you'll "win"

[Cordie]

"Net loss" gc seals are a bonus on top of the tomes. I'm not running the dungeons specifically for tomes. It's called multitasking.
[...]
I ignored nothing
If my way of gearing up isn't optimal i don't know how you think gearing up in 245 dungeon gear is better. Like seriously i think one of us ignored that burned toast smell for far too long.

It's not multitasking, it's getting less over time by choice. I don't care much if you want a 2x slower (at best) progress in seal farming, but if you insist on pushing others to what you consider the most time-efficient way of gearing a class/job so they don't roll against your seal "need", you would profit more by farming seals faster.

Once again NO ANSWER from you on why you need i245 gear.
[...]
you [...] avoid direct questions [...]

Same reason you do + gearing off-classes/jobs + desynth + glam.
Why would you assume any less? Because not being an a**hole to others implies needs of a lesser importance?

you take everything out of context, [...] and probably think that if i stop trying to talk you'll "win"

Yeah. I roll need on everything i can. But i don't wine about not being able to roll need on everything. When i roll need i know it's a guarantee.

Finding a reference out of context in my posts will be a challenge, but you're welcome to try.

I think you would lose nothing with my win:
Enable "Need" option for all, and for all items, regardless of role/job/class.
More for you to "need" on, if anything! If you want to prioritize all party members' needs for that "guaranteed" roll, you may use the party chat as others have suggested.

[Valenth]

snip

Statistically taken over 1000 or maybe 10000 runs you're right of course, everybody should get roughly an equal amount of drops. But as I said before, there is this one guy in the world (well maybe a few) that has the worst luck ever and doesn't get a job-drop for five days straight. Or in my case, back when HW launched and I tried to get my tank boots from The Vault and it didn't drop for me in 47 runs. I had however given up on them eventually and they dropped on the run after when I did on my Dragoon. I cursed the Twelve for playing such a trick on me, but you know what? The tank that run told me "I'd like them too, but I'll greed on it so we both have a shot, okay?" and I got the boots. You can imagine how happy I was with that guy's kindness and it inspired me to do the same. I'd like to prevent the hefty frustration that may come from situations such as that by making drops for my own class greeded if they aren't a direct upgrade to my current gear.

You implied twice now I do it for my self-esteem. If you're trying to shame me for liking to see my fellow players happy (like the tank that day made me happy) and thus far more engaging in every aspect of social interaction, I'm afraid I'll disappoint you. Do I do it to feel happier? Heck yes! Do I do it because lifting others up in a more fair way contributes to a better life for us all (yours included)? Absolutely! I'm not ashamed at all to say that makes me feel more alive and that my life all together has a higher quality because of it. Of course I do it for my self-esteem, as a member of the human race! We all feel better when others are happier around us. We enjoy giving gifts more than receiving them.

You say you're taking precautions to your own self-development as well. All these things combined lead me to believe you've been taken on a few too many trips to Brown Town (if you'll excuse the nastiness there) and have become pessimistic/mistrusting as a result. The point that drives it home for me is that in the two responses you've given you're focussing a lot on yourself, your PoV, you. Thing is, as I said before, the world with this virtual one included, is about more than you. Gosh, I really loved that Dr. Strange movie for driving that point home as a recent example. Anyway, I'm sorry you don't seem to have run into people such as that tank stranger was to me. Yet.

To your next point: if you'd get the gear because I greeded instead of needed... wouldn't I have helped you? You may find it pointless on a personal PoV, but doesn't this contradict your point as to how you are now being even more able for your 'self development'? You're happier, you get to do your things a tad easier, that's the point for me. However, I'll greed on it instead of passing on it all together. I'm not a complete exploitable idiot like that, lol. You can protect yourself while being kind! And no, when you get a drop because I greeded and not needed I do not expect you to thank me on your hands and knees (or at all really). Knowing you'll make good use of it, and I hope as a result grow happier, is enough for me. Maybe you call that self-righteous, but it works for me and nothing you've said so far has made me even reconsider that point.

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply.

[bardaboo]

It's not multitasking, it's getting less over time by choice. I don't care much if you want a 2x slower (at best) progress in seal farming, but if you insist on pushing others to what you consider the most time-efficient way of gearing a class/job so they don't roll against your seal "need", you would profit more by farming seals faster.

It is multitasking. I never said I'm running dungeons only for gc seals. I am running it for lore, scrip tomes, gc seals, glam, off classes.

[Saito_S]

snip

I'm not going to speak for Underdog, of course, but if I had to venture a guess as to what might rub someone the wrong way about what you've said on this topic:

It's not so much the idea that YOU greed on things you could need on, because you feel you don't "truly" need it and someone else might. Obviously that behavior doesn't negatively impact anyone else, and hey, you do you.

Rather, the sticking point is the tone you adopted in your original post a couple pages back that (not very) subtly suggested that your way was the moral high road, was some kind of Lost Art of Kindness from yon olden days, and that simply rolling need if you happen to be on the right class, because there's some gear up for rolling that you really "want" but don't "need" for stat upgrades, is selfish. Especially since many people in the thread have already said that they will roll need for all kinds of reasons, from glamour to seals, BUT that if someone else in the party simply asks if they can have the item because it'd be an actual stat upgrade for their class, or even for an alt class, then they'll gladly let them. Honestly, Underdog's reply to it may have been extremely blunt, but that post was pretty high-horse-ish, with the talk of genetics and unavoidable implications that not rolling Need is the "heroic" path.

And for the record, I have observed no such shift in how people view rolling need vs. greed. Since 2.0 launched, this very thread is the first time I've seen it suggested that anything OTHER than "everyone just rolls on what they want to roll on, unless someone requests that a certain drop be given to them" should be the norm. Could be a server/data center thing, I dunno.

[Cordie]

and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

J : total number of jobs in the role
S : number of slots for the role
Jn : number of jobs that can need on the item type
Sn : number of slots occupied by jobs that can need on the item type
N : number of item types

calculation as follows:

Jn < J :


Jn = J :
(SnN)⁻¹

If you think you can do a better job, go ahead.


edit: sleepy and making copy/paste mistakes ughh
edit#2: adding simplified case for tanks/healers