Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

[Valenth]

snip

Statistically taken over 1000 or maybe 10000 runs you're right of course, everybody should get roughly an equal amount of drops. But as I said before, there is this one guy in the world (well maybe a few) that has the worst luck ever and doesn't get a job-drop for five days straight. Or in my case, back when HW launched and I tried to get my tank boots from The Vault and it didn't drop for me in 47 runs. I had however given up on them eventually and they dropped on the run after when I did on my Dragoon. I cursed the Twelve for playing such a trick on me, but you know what? The tank that run told me "I'd like them too, but I'll greed on it so we both have a shot, okay?" and I got the boots. You can imagine how happy I was with that guy's kindness and it inspired me to do the same. I'd like to prevent the hefty frustration that may come from situations such as that by making drops for my own class greeded if they aren't a direct upgrade to my current gear.

You implied twice now I do it for my self-esteem. If you're trying to shame me for liking to see my fellow players happy (like the tank that day made me happy) and thus far more engaging in every aspect of social interaction, I'm afraid I'll disappoint you. Do I do it to feel happier? Heck yes! Do I do it because lifting others up in a more fair way contributes to a better life for us all (yours included)? Absolutely! I'm not ashamed at all to say that makes me feel more alive and that my life all together has a higher quality because of it. Of course I do it for my self-esteem, as a member of the human race! We all feel better when others are happier around us. We enjoy giving gifts more than receiving them.

You say you're taking precautions to your own self-development as well. All these things combined lead me to believe you've been taken on a few too many trips to Brown Town (if you'll excuse the nastiness there) and have become pessimistic/mistrusting as a result. The point that drives it home for me is that in the two responses you've given you're focussing a lot on yourself, your PoV, you. Thing is, as I said before, the world with this virtual one included, is about more than you. Gosh, I really loved that Dr. Strange movie for driving that point home as a recent example. Anyway, I'm sorry you don't seem to have run into people such as that tank stranger was to me. Yet.

To your next point: if you'd get the gear because I greeded instead of needed... wouldn't I have helped you? You may find it pointless on a personal PoV, but doesn't this contradict your point as to how you are now being even more able for your 'self development'? You're happier, you get to do your things a tad easier, that's the point for me. However, I'll greed on it instead of passing on it all together. I'm not a complete exploitable idiot like that, lol. You can protect yourself while being kind! And no, when you get a drop because I greeded and not needed I do not expect you to thank me on your hands and knees (or at all really). Knowing you'll make good use of it, and I hope as a result grow happier, is enough for me. Maybe you call that self-righteous, but it works for me and nothing you've said so far has made me even reconsider that point.

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply.

[Saito_S]

snip

I'm not going to speak for Underdog, of course, but if I had to venture a guess as to what might rub someone the wrong way about what you've said on this topic:

It's not so much the idea that YOU greed on things you could need on, because you feel you don't "truly" need it and someone else might. Obviously that behavior doesn't negatively impact anyone else, and hey, you do you.

Rather, the sticking point is the tone you adopted in your original post a couple pages back that (not very) subtly suggested that your way was the moral high road, was some kind of Lost Art of Kindness from yon olden days, and that simply rolling need if you happen to be on the right class, because there's some gear up for rolling that you really "want" but don't "need" for stat upgrades, is selfish. Especially since many people in the thread have already said that they will roll need for all kinds of reasons, from glamour to seals, BUT that if someone else in the party simply asks if they can have the item because it'd be an actual stat upgrade for their class, or even for an alt class, then they'll gladly let them. Honestly, Underdog's reply to it may have been extremely blunt, but that post was pretty high-horse-ish, with the talk of genetics and unavoidable implications that not rolling Need is the "heroic" path.

And for the record, I have observed no such shift in how people view rolling need vs. greed. Since 2.0 launched, this very thread is the first time I've seen it suggested that anything OTHER than "everyone just rolls on what they want to roll on, unless someone requests that a certain drop be given to them" should be the norm. Could be a server/data center thing, I dunno.

[Valenth]

snippity

Haha, yeah, I'll admit I was a bit angry at that point in time from all the seemingly dismissive posts I read, which was caused when I failed to apply nuance to reading the OP's post. I interpreted as if people were taking the piss out of the concept of caring for fellow players as something nasty. I emotionaly still stand by the actual meaning of those words though and I don't consider it bad to be on that particular high horse, especially when it benefits everyone around me. I'm also glad to a degree the tone of voice actually offended someone enough to reply. It means that person most definitely struggled at one point in their life with the ethics I pointed out by the tone of voice, which is good. But I guess I was a bit overzealous and for the sake of actually reinforcing what I would consider ideal behaviour in society, doing this actually backfires on me. These things ideally should come voluntarilly, without enforcement from me like an angry parent.

Urgh, so much to learn still. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the point-out Saito_S

Ps. Back in the days I was literally made aware of need/greed etiquette and on the Chaos (EU) data-center it most definitely seemed like people adhered to it whenever I was in roulettes. Maybe it's, or was I suppose, a European sentiment?

Pps. I welcome bluntness, I'm Dutch. But people can expect me to dissect the lack on rationality if they don't apply some in the mix that is their arguments. You (Saito-S) applied a good dose of it, showed you disagreed and showed understanding both sides. A balance between emotional and rational that can count on my support all the way.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

Ohh get off the soapbox and stop with the sophistry (you are doing it again)... Don't make assumptions about my personal experiences pls. I've been annoyed at RNG not players for RNG favoring them, there is a massive difference between the two. Never not once have I felt an item has been taken from me by another player unfairly, I have always been able to roll need on what I want.

I didn't feel the reply because Saito_S pretty much summed up the sentiment.

Been playing on the Choas datacentre since 2.0, never been such an etiquette. No one person telling you to do something does not reflect sentiments across the entire datacentre. Or you think you are always on the better end of everything "I don't roll need coz I'm so nice", "ahh well maybe your datacentre sucks coz mine was so perfect"... Sure I've not quoted directly but tell me how this is not your argument? :P

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply.

One thing I would like to say in regards to above is that my argument is nothing but pragmatic as there is a use for these items outside of just gearing. Your argument is purely emotional and relies on the emotions of yourself and other players. So called me out on being the one basing their opinion on emotion only is rather hypocritical as that is all your argument, you have nothing else.

The pragamtic argument you don't want to listen to and keep going back to talking about your feelings, so tell me how you want a discussion?

[Valenth]

snip

I initially failed to apply nuance the OP and misinterpreted the responses throughout the thread through red-coloured glasses because of it. I was derailing the thread responding to primarilly emotional reasonings I tunnel-visioned on at that time. I think we both have been a bit guilty of this, haven't we? But I'll take the blame for inciting it. Time to move on I guess.