Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

[Gemina]

Compromise good word, should have used it myself, but do you see anything remotely compromising about some of the posts here? Saying that its interested me and now Im wondering how a compromise could be applied, any suggestions? And I mean, changes to game play cos some wont compromise if its up to them. Oh and must reply to that person calling me a liar do you realise I was talking of story mode? and I categorically am not lying cos I saw it with my own eyes but it may not have been posted publically, oh and my percentile is 63 just checked

Like other posters have stated, the debates and animosity exists to a greater extent on these forums than it actually does in game. From my experience, when grouped in an instance everyone is paying attention to what they are doing, but START paying attention to their group members when they disrupt the flow. And by disrupt the flow, I mean not performing the very basics of their role. Tanks who can't hold agro, face AoE towards the group; healers who are not healing, or keeping themselves alive, and DPS with low damage, or failing mechanics over and over again. These are the things that stick out like a sore thumb because they destroy the flow of the run.

When tanks and healers don't DPS, it simply slows things down. Maybe it's my datacenter or server, but these wrestling matches seldom happen in-game for the same reasons. It is entirely possible that players are remaining quite instead of voicing their frustrations with healers and tanks who don't add to DPS, but it only goes to show that they can and will tolerate it because ultimately, the main goal is still perfectly obtainable, and griping in-game will only slow things down further.

Compromise is a double-edged sword. Even with change in game play, the current frustration will only shift. Change in gameplay like removing Cleric during instances won't solve anything and infuriate DPS healers even more. Other examples I thought of can all be contested in one way or another. I feel the problem exists partially with how healers are designed. They have the lowest requirement of all roles in order to get a clear, but have the highest requirement to perform optimally. Because of this, a healer who optimizes their toolkit is ALWAYS going to be the ideal choice, and the majority of the player base wants an ideal situation. It's just how it is.

If as a healer, are so comfortable that you can /follow a tank with SCH, or emote and jump around the arena, or go AFK. You're are not being courteous to the other members of your group. I've been the nervous healer, afraid to go into Cleric and these actions are unfathomable for me. I could hardly believe the video I saw. If you see me standing around, I might not be taking any action, but the brain activity is at lightspeed levels, evaluating the entire situation.

Players throwing their hands up at the group with a non-dpsing healer isn't doing anything to help the group or themselves, or the community. You don't encourage good play with crappy attitudes. Good play is encouraged by leading with example, showing patience, willingness to work with others, and yes, rolling with the punches. I've gained my confidence to DPS while healing by aspiring to be like those players, not those abandoning duties the moment things aren't going the way they would like it to.

Each player type is being selfish and hurtful to others. A problem with the community can't be fixed by the devs. It's up the players within the community to make things better on their own.

[IttyBitty]

Really? Im a healer so I should be excluded if I dont or cant dps? That is morally wrong. Especially as said before that healer dps is not an absolute requirement Hill skill yes but not doubling up on two classes no other class has around 36 skills they have to use. And I also have to state that scholar does have the heaing requirements necessary

Yes, you should be excluded if you don't or "can't" DPS. Everybody else is using around 95% of their GCDs in an encounter. You're using around 20% if you don't DPS. They're working almost 5 times harder than you are! What makes you so special to think this is okay?

Also, every class has around the same number of skills. There's nothing special about a healer's toolkit. Have you even looked at optimal DPS class rotations? How complex they can be? I really don't think you have. SMN's optimal openers, for example, have always been a ridiculous feat to pull off effectively.

[craized]

Why do you keep trotting out this ridiculous nonsense? You have a toolkit that includes skills that do damage, you are expected to use them as appropriate to make use of GCDs that would otherwise go to waste.

Boy it's almost like every single class has skills that sit outside of their intended role.

one or two extra utility abilities does not, a paradigm shift make. its not comparable to having to completely change the skills you use.

and if you think doing damage isn't part of a tanks role then you don't know how tanks work - doing higher damage grants more agro - its all part of their role and doesn't require any (or very minimal) adjustment to play.

[bounddreamer]

Really? Im a healer so I should be excluded if I dont or cant dps? That is morally wrong. Especially as said before that healer dps is not an absolute requirement Hill skill yes but not doubling up on two classes no other class has around 36 skills they have to use. And I also have to state that scholar does have the heaing requirements necessary

Again, it's situational. If we're in duty finder and there's a lot of downtime and I notice you not dpsing, I'll just switch to cleric stance myself and do it, while commenting to my FC that I found a SCH who seems allergic to dpsing.

If we are in a party finder group for something like, say, Zurvan, and I notice you standing around, I may ask you to dps more, or I may do it myself. If you won't dps or you struggle to keep up heals while I add dps during healing light parts of the fight, I'll leave the group and blacklist you.

If you were in my static and refused to dps, I guarantee my group would boot you. Balanced heals and dps - fine. Focusing heals and standing idle - not fine.

"Morally wrong" doesn't apply here, but the indignant use of the term certainly adds flavor to the salt.

[craized]

Yes, you should be excluded if you don't or "can't" DPS. Everybody else is using around 95% of their GCDs in an encounter. You're using around 20% if you don't DPS. They're working almost 5 times harder than you are! What makes you so special to think this is okay?

Also, every class has around the same number of skills. There's nothing special about a healer's toolkit. Have you even looked at optimal DPS class rotations? How complex they can be? I really don't think you have. SMN's optimal openers, for example, have always been a ridiculous feat to pull off effectively.

there is nothing hard about pressing buttons, being situationally aware is much more taxing and that's what a healers main task involves. and btw the summoner open is a piece of piss. there is nothing difficult about it other than learning the rotation.

[Ghishlain]

The problem with that is that devs wouldn't make that remark since they gave all healers a varying arsenal of dps abilities. Healers do very good dps as well. The other issue is that if a healer isn't dpsing it means enemies aren't dying as fast. Which in turn means more healing, more time involved, yet still less overall activity from the healer. That's the very definition of hindering/inefficient. Players can multitask easily in this game. They're simply choosing the lazy route.

It makes more sense to toss up the necessary regens/shields/buffs and then dps when the chances are there.

It's pretty easy to counter the "I got more DPS skills" argument. DPS kits got more potent DPS rotations and thus mobs would naturally get more HP to suit. In order to keep healer clears of MSQ at a decent time, we give them more abilities to DPS with. Power creep and the like.

The definition of hindering is a function of the baseline required performance of the healer. The only time a healer is hindering the party is if they're letting their party die.

Again, I will say I don't disagree with the sentiment of lazy. I will disagree with the sentiment that a healer that only heals is a hindrance to the party.

They're a hinderance to their party because they have the potential to bring this huge benefit to their group and they refuse to do so. Just like a BRD who refuses to sing when they could boost their caster DPS or their healer has died and needs MP is a hinderance to their group. Bard songs aren't required for clearing any content, either, but it doesn't make it any more acceptable to refuse singing.

And it doesn't really matter what Dev's have claimed on the topic, when we the players know that Alexander Gordias or Midas could not even be beaten without healer DPS when they were released - even with the best possible DPS players in the world. Healer DPS was obviously needed to be able to beat that content.

Inefficient doesn't equate to hindrance in this aspect of the game. A healer who chooses only to heal is moving the party along the pace that the developers have intended. The only time a healer is hindering the party is when they're letting people die.

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I will say this to the pro-healer DPS players - until you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that a healer who doesn't DPS is a hindrance to the party as per the developers design, your statements are only opinions - not facts. If you're booting healers who don't DPS, you're just driving a massive wedge into the healer community that shouldn't exist.

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

[dotsforlife]

snip

The very definition of hinder is to create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

I don't know how that can be any clearer for people. The issue I have personally with healers who "only" choose to heal, or ANY role who "only" chooses to do the minimum, is that they're being selfish/lazy and hindering my playing time. I don't have nearly as much time to game like most people do, so when I do I want to progress and get things done efficiently to keep the workflow going smoothly. As a boss you wouldn't hire an employee if you knew they were just doing enough to get by would you? No, you wouldnt. Same concept applies here, and that's where the problem derives from. Selfish and lazy players costing others. No one is expecting perfection or pro skills, just the courtesy to play the role they chose FULLY.

[Taika]

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

I just can't comprehend how it's considered rude to ask someone to contribute in the party for more than 20% (or less) of the time - especially when the exact same principle is applied to all the jobs: I would ask the same from a tank or DD who'd afk for 80% of the time too. And I do always ask nicely and politely, saying, for example "Hey [healer], since the tank or anyone else isn't taking much damage here, could you please put some DoTs up / use Holy / Gravity?". Just like I'd ask for a BRD to sing Requiem if they're not otherwise doing it.

Then, if the answer is "no, I'm here to only heal", or even worse, "I'm here to /follow the tank and drink coffee while my fairy heals"...



How come it's not considered rude to flat out refuse to contribute as much as the rest of your team, but instead it is considered rude to ask party members to contribute evenly?

Of course I wouldn't support kicking a new healer who's learning their job and the instance and are busy enough with all that without any DPS. But those who're comfortable and familiar with their job and the instance and are simply refusing to be helpful when they could, after being asked to do so in a nice manner, I see no issue kicking.

[Zojha]

I'm highlighting the obstinate stubbornness showcased in a portion of the pro-healer-DPS crowd about their opinion = fact when it's not and thus entitles them to boot or be asininely rude and disrespectful to healers who choose only to heal.

hindrance - noun
A thing that provides resistance, delay, or obstruction to something or someone.

delay - verb
Make (someone or something) late or slow.

1. Damage as per developers design speeds up the run.
2. Not dealing damage as per developer's design slows down the run.
-> A. Thus, a person not dealing damage slows down the run as per developer's design.

3. Slowing down the run equals creating a delay as per definition of the word.
4. A thing that creates a delay is a hindrance as per definition of the word.
- Refer to A
-> B. Players who don't deal damage are a hindrance as per developer's design and the definition of those words.

QED.

[IttyBitty]

one or two extra utility abilities does not, a paradigm shift make. its not comparable to having to completely change the skills you use.

and if you think doing damage isn't part of a tanks role then you don't know how tanks work - doing higher damage grants more agro - its all part of their role and doesn't require any (or very minimal) adjustment to play.

A tank's job is to hold aggro, ergo they should only care about using their highest emnity combo/aoe skills. How much or little damage they do while doing it is inconsequential, so long as enemies are staying put. If they are holding aggro, they are doing their job, right? I mean, if a healer simply keeping everybody alive is "doing their job", then the same should hold true for tanks - or do you hold tanks to a higher standard for some inane reason?

being situationally aware is much more taxing

Speaking as a healer, situational awareness is a "piece of piss" and not taxing in any way whatsoever. You glance at health bars occasionally while observing what everybody else is observing. Tres difficile!

It's pretty easy to counter the "I got more DPS skills" argument. DPS kits got more potent DPS rotations and thus mobs would naturally get more HP to suit. In order to keep healer clears of MSQ at a decent time, we give them more abilities to DPS with. Power creep and the like.

If this were the case, you would have one DPS skill that received traits to increase damage alongside level increases. Or they'd buff the damage component of the "Maim & Mend" traits.