PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Chronons]

"I'll quote you without even typing what I quote and make a purposedly vague sentence so that I don't have to develop my answer".
Yeah, sure...

I'll leave you to your unexplained "equity"...

I guess my sarcasm went over your head. Apologies, ill explain for you. I found it funny that despite for the third time laying out the argument in detail you not only failed to engage it, but instead nitpicked musings about what "games" have or don't have a meta.(You are wrong about those by the way. White does have an accepted first turn advantage in chess theory and your responses to SF and LoL are that they have a more balanced meta, therefore they are examples of games without metas that favor some picks over others. That is a stupid argument.) Its not rocket science, other posters have engaged the idea and we had a parlay about their response. I know you read those posts because you keep copying my responses to them and attempting to weigh in, although even there you seem to lack an understanding of context.

I'm not explaining what I mean by "equity" any further, go reread, google things you don't understand. Again, others haven't had an issue understanding. Its not a failure of the message its a failure of the receiver at play here.

[Reynhart]

I found it funny that despite for the third time laying out the argument in detail you not only failed to engage

You're right, it's funny...because on top of not arguing anything apart "That's how it should be because I say so", you also fail to understand other's point, up to considering an opposite argument as "your point', and mocking the irony...It's also not my fault if you don't understand the fundamental concept of what a meta is and why it exists in games...and especially how it does not really apply to FFXIV, despite the term being pasted all over it.

I'm not explaining what I mean by "equity" any further, go reread, google things you don't understand.

I don't need to google it, I'm just pretty sure you're not using the word properly.

Again, others haven't had an issue understanding.

Funny how "not agreeing with you" is considered not understanding...

So, let me say it once again. This game should not have easier but weaker jobs, because it makes those who play those jobs away from the top team, even they have the personal skill to compete. And for those that can't compete ? Their lesser mastery will still be fully enough for the easier content.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Except that every job is able to still clear the hardest content, a4s was the only exception due to the huge amount of magic damage and mostly this type of balance influences more heavily on the week 1 world progression (speedrun for now) but not necessarily when the fights have been done weeks and months after and people still think WAR is a must and PLD is not viable. People are just being sheeps if they feel that PLD can't clear any content or the job makes it WAY harder to clear which is not true at all. People complain and overreating over balance issue when they aren't even raiding is like beating a dead horse. How do you know if there is a problem if you haven't tried it out yet? It's all speculation until proven.

Sarcatica, while there is at least one comp that every job can be in and clear all raid content I doubt that this would currently be considered a viable progression raid static in a world first race even though it follows my rules:

• Tank 1: Drk
• Tank 2: Pld
• Healer 1: Whm
• Healer 2: Ast
• Melee 1: Mnk
• Melee 2: Drg
• Ranged 1: Smn
• Ranged 2: Blm

I bet that some people now still think that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s which again is not true at all.

It is harder to clear with a Paladin (it requires several changes in comp to cover the deficiencies at the cost of losing further dps which in turn increases difficulty), but not to the extent that a static running with a Paladin would be multiple weeks behind due to needing superior gear.

[Chronons]

snip

Equity - the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality. As expresses by the notion that playing a harder class, should come with some sort of award. DPS, in the examples we have been discussing. As you can see, that is a proper use of the word. Or maybe you don't, idk anymore.

Its "not agreeing with me" that displays a lack of understanding. Its the unwillingness or inability to develop a complete argument. Its the absurdness of claiming that FFXIV doesn't have a meta when concerning jobs, and a misrepresentation of what a meta is to fit your narrative.

So, let me say it once again. This game should not have easier but weaker jobs, because it makes those who play those jobs away from the top team, even they have the personal skill to compete. And for those that can't compete ? Their lesser mastery will still be fully enough for the easier content.

Broken grammar aside, this is the closest thing you have posited that resembles an argument in favor of your premise. I think you are saying that if SE made PLD harder to play and increased its DPS, that competitive players would be happy and that it wouldn't be so difficult that low skill players couldn't still play it? Im not really sure though, your phrasing is very difficult to confer meaning from.

[Llus]

oh no no I'm not saying it would happen. I was more saying any kind of defensive buffs to the job would just be lolled at if the meta doesn't change.

it would be the same as giving a whm even more powerfull heals in 4.0.... even something like aoe benediction... they'd just get lolled at cos still no dps......

my divine veil thing wasn't that well thought out to be honest it was just a quick example of how any kind of offensive utility would make pld more desirable. yet a hundred defensive buffs the job would still be a joke

Yea, defensive CDs - unless there's a major shift in the tanking meta - won't help at all. Some changes to existing buffs would be great, but overall more DPS and synergy with DRK is called for. For example, reprisal - procs a reset for more DPS, low blow procs a reset for more DPS; but PLD that procs an activation of shield swipe gets changed to a long CD instead of simply making it an off GCD. Hell, get rid of the timer on that one skill alone and and PLD DPS would shoot through the roof in a MT position. Give swipe a useful PvE debuff like blunt resist down (shield lob, swipe and bash should all be blunt damage anyway) and watch the people start making PLD & MNK comp groups again with an option of DRK OR WAR.

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

You said that in your opinion, dont let me misrepresent you, the more complex classes doing more DPS shouldn't continue as that forces competitive players into a meta and that is a bad thing. My posit to you was if you could name for me any competitive game that does not have a meta, which you conceded that you could not. That means two possible things; Either every competitive game that you or I can think of is doing something bad, or that metas are a natural development of competitive games and arent in fact bad.

IMO it's more like a combination of the two: metas are a natural development of competitive games and it's always a bad thing. It's bad, but unfortunately it's unavoidable. What can be done to combat that, however -- and we can see this in League of Legends for example -- are constant balancing tweaks to the various playable characters. These balancing tweaks aim to conserve a level playing field. But in any case, it's no use pursuing that train of thought; I think your next paragraph is much more interesting and I'd like to shift focus there.

My issue as stated is with an arbitrary increase in DPS in a mechanically simpler class like PLD.

I have an issue with that as well, but for different reasons which are irrelevant at this point. I mentioned it in my first comment on this thread iirc.

In practice however, I disagree that changing PLD is a good idea at all. That is because FFXIV does not only have a competitive player base. There needs to be high accessibility mechanically simpler jobs for low skill players. Those players exist, and vastly outnumber the competitive crowd. Making all the jobs equal in difficulty does one of two things: it isolates low skill players by not giving them the tools they need to grow or it waters down the competitive scene.

I get what you mean. SE needs to cater to both the competitive and the casual players so there appears to be a tradeoff when adjusting the difficulties of the tank classes. The question is: how do we adjust the difficulty of all tank classes so that they are ALL accessible and playable by low-skill players while also providing challenge to competitive players who want to push the limits of their class/job? How do we achieve this while also avoiding limiting player choice by making one tank class/job more effective than another tank class/job? The ideal situation, in other words, is to have all the 3 tank classes at equal difficulty and equal damage (personal dps or raidwide dps contribution) but to have the difficulty of these classes land in the perfect "goldilocks" zone which satisfies the level of play of both casual and competitive players.

I can think of a multi-step process that may alleviate some of these problems:
Step 1: Increase the difficulty and damage output of PLD. (Not its personal damage, but allow it to increase raidwide DPS via support buffs or support mechanics). At this point, PLD, WAR, and DRK will all be above the skill level of most casual players. They will effectively be isolated/"locked out" of these classes because they're simply too hard for them to play. Step 2 will address this issue.
Step 2: Make rotations of all classes/jobs more straightforward. No more trying to figure out if saving Infuriate and Internal Release for your Berserk window is a DPS loss or gain (hold it, obviously xD). If Infuriate and IR had the same CD as Berserk, than it would be much more straightforward. Basically, if you can create a simple flowchart of the rotation of a job/class without having to write down a bunch of crap in asterisks then that's a good start.
Step 3: Create level 60 tutorials for each job detailing the proper rotations. (If SE has the resources, then this would further cater to the low-skill players while having no detrimental effects to the competitive scene).
Step 4: Make ridiculously hard fights that require the competitive players to rearrange their rotations in order to optimize damage output in the fight.

SE's plans for 4.0 rotations actually reflects this. I hear they're going to make rotations easier and more straightforward. Moreover, I hear that the next raid will have a difficulty level that's twice as difficult as the savage tier right now! I'm a competitive player, and even if they do make rotations easier, I'll be happy so long as I can still push my job to its maximum potential in such a difficult fight.

[shao32]

Parry was and is still useless and has no effect with your shield

parry was "useless" but i still remember those 27% i get and the rate i get it compared to now, parry was a lot better in arr by far, they nerf it a lot caping it at 20% and lowering they rate from dex, still PLD was superior bcs have double check instead only a check, and have more chance to get a block of 30-35% or parrys of 25-27%.

I challenge you to run any of the following at min-iLevel and still tell me there weren't heavy DPS checks

i dont have too, im in the game form the arr beta every month excet just 1 month i take a rest, i clear everything when was release, and yes they have dps checks but by far less severe that alexander checks, the only heavy dps check we can consider here it was the avatar in turn 8, so read again please i say "figths was not built in heavy dps checks", i dont say they dont have it at all.

the SRT tank meta start like a hybrid builds like much at the final tier on final coil comes out, whit getting overgeared you meaby can get more SRT pieces but that request have expert healers in top gear at you side, was in HW when get out of control with the lower damage every mod dealt to us and send all fending accesories to the dump, no dps check on arr request the huge amount of dps we need to get to defeat faust and is the easy one, HW was build behind dps walls.

[Chronons]

snip

Thank you. Genuinely. This is an exquisite example of an argument based in logic and reasoning. It also shows that you fully understand the counterpoint I was positing.

I would agree with your multi-step approach. It provides the much needed context that others seem to neglect. I think you have effectively tried to address the isolation affect of complicating classes. I also think that giving PLD, or all the tanks for that matter, different but equal contributions to DPS is generally good. The crux of this, I think, will be SE's ability to effectively balance. Low skill players will always be a limit to how interesting/complex they can make the jobs. There are plenty of players who are lvl 60 that don't have a clue what rotations, BiS, or cooldown management mean. And they generally will outnumber those of us who do. Now, will SE be able to make the jobs simple enough for new players, while also keeping them all equally desirable for competitive play? I'm not sure, but perhaps. My pointing to other games always having a meta is my suggesting that it is very, very difficult. Namely because most games have the same issue, catering to low and high skill players.

[Sarcatica]

Sarcatica, while there is at least one comp that every job can be in and clear all raid content I doubt that this would currently be considered a viable progression raid static in a world first race even though it follows my rules:

• Tank 1: Drk
• Tank 2: Pld
• Healer 1: Whm
• Healer 2: Ast
• Melee 1: Mnk
• Melee 2: Drg
• Ranged 1: Smn
• Ranged 2: Blm

In the most logical way you will want to avoid this comp in the lower ilvl BUT now it is still possible to clear I can 100% guarantee you that. If you are looking to raid at the highest level, you are always seeking on what else you can do for your team, always abuse the best picks for the team if possible, for me I had the ability to flex PLD/DRK so i could accomodate clearing it better for my group. Top players of any games don't go on begging the developers to buff certain classes whatnot because they don't want to play other classes. This only applies to the top players, because they will look into exploiting best picks and they have the ability to flex other jobs of the same role. What sort of top player that doesn't want to adapt to the current best meta? It is silly at best if you choose to do speedrun (in the context of ffxiv) as PLD when everyone literally knows that DRK is simply better. But that's another aspect of the game that almost sees no play. SE has no obligation to balance jobs around what the speedrunners do, judging from how slowly they buffed PLD in the first place.

If your team suddenly wants to speedrun and hope that you will pick up DRK instead of PLD, what will you do? It is all in the matter of perspective, people just like to play what's best even though majority of them don't even know how to push the jobs to the limit at least well enough. Also why I feel that the 2016 census has DRK and WAR at the top 2.

The biggest gripe is that the discrepancy on DPS is mainly from the skill of each player. Like I cleared Creator within 2 weeks with mostly i250s, if anyone is not able to clear at this point with mostly i260s and i270s is not the balance issue but your skill. With the i250s, we first killed it before 2nd cycle of last phase resolved.

It is harder to clear with a Paladin (it requires several changes in comp to cover the deficiencies at the cost of losing further dps which in turn increases difficulty), but not to the extent that a static running with a Paladin would be multiple weeks behind due to needing superior gear.

Some top groups did world progression with PLD and MNK, to say that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s is ignorant. Are you pulling facts out of your ass now? I know most people in ths forum do tbh. People don't listen to understand, they listen to argue.

I am going to pose this question to you, have you cleared at least a12s as a tank to comment on this matter? Your opinions need to have facts to back it up if you are going to make a preposterous claim such as "PLD makes it harder to clear a12s". If you still have problem to clear a12s with PLD with all the gear you can get now, you clearly are in the dark and it's best to ponder about it.

[Sarcatica]

Now, will SE be able to make the jobs simple enough for new players, while also keeping them all equally desirable for competitive play? I'm not sure, but perhaps. My pointing to other games always having a meta is my suggesting that it is very, very difficult. Namely because most games have the same issue, catering to low and high skill players.

In the first place, it is a very hard task for MMOs to diversify raid picks. Unlike games with pvp, MMOs are constrained by how the raids interact with the players, sooner or later people will find the best comp, route etc. Compare to LoL, DotA2, CSGO, SC2 etc where opportunity is not presented the same way mainly because the opponents are human as well which means that diversifying raid picks on MMOs needs more variables to play against, all bosses so far have the same patterns with rngs. The root of the problem comes from the design itself where tactics on how you handle mechanics don't change, or rarely differ. As long as the formula stays, diversity on picks remain stale at the top competition.