PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Reynhart]

lol I'm glad those are what you took from what I said. I really shouldn't have expected much else.

"I'll quote you without even typing what I quote and make a purposedly vague sentence so that I don't have to develop my answer".
Yeah, sure...

You weren't being rejected from PFs because SE made content impossible to do as PLD though

Who said anything about "content impossible to do" ?

SE will likely, and from a business perspective unfortunately probably should, cater to them.

Content that require perfect mastery like Savage are already not catered to those people.

I'll leave you to your unexplained "equity"...

[shao32]

People state that the meta changed when HW was released, but it's wrong. The only things that kept PLD into party in 2.x was the absence of a third tank

i disagree whit this in particular, the rest is nice, in HW change many thinks not only adding a new tank.
mp management was a think on healers, determination scale with autoattacks so sword oath was better, damage betwen PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference apart of the aoe and this one burn WAR tp like hell something that not happen anymore.
PLD have better mitigations tools,WAR have it a little worse but more versatile having the storm effects to complete the set, and parry scales a lot better making the shield more relevant that is now, and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks, WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD and being they equal in a balance betwen 2 not 3, if DRK was there from the 2.0 sure the WAR rework was better built to balance it betwen the 3 being all usefull in any combination.

[Reynhart]

damage of PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference

PLD's damage with Storm's Eye was close to WAR's. If you could have two WAR benefitting from two Eyes...

and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks

Even if fights with no hard DPS check, PLD is avoided if possible, because people still want to kill as fast as possible.

WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD

They didn't check WAR's utility because "you need two different tanks to be optimal". All of WAR's utility already existed before HW.

[shao32]

PLD's damage with Storm's Eye was close to WAR's. If you could have two WAR benefitting from two Eyes...

with thinking you can only have choose betwen 2 tanks that was fair the buff was there alwais, if we have 3 tanks from the begining im pretty sure that slashing effect never go to be a think at least in a raid buff

Even if fights with no hard DPS check, PLD is avoided if possible, because people still want to kill as fast as possible.

WAR was better dps but ppl still pick PLD for solotanking and most 2 tank partys bcs PLD dealt same or even more dps and better pasive mitigation that WAR in tank stance, something here is avoidable thanks to the lower value we get on the desing of the conten and jobs making us dont use tank stance when we are tanking, pray if one of the bosses catch you without it and you dont have extremly expert healers perfectly geared at your side, PLD was higly prefered even with all WAR skill set but not enough to push out WAR.

They didn't check WAR's utility because "you need two different tanks to be optimal". All of WAR's utility already existed before HW.

the WAR utility already existed i know i was a damm WAR main those days, i say they didnt check the impact of the huge WAR utility when they add DRK, something they adressed and is one of the main reason why PLD are complety inferior, bcs one of the thinks that PLD have to counter WAR utility was they mitigation and they benefics of tanking on shield oath over tanking on defiance, in terms of dps and healers impact.

eye scale from just buff the damage of 2 of the lower damage dealers of the game to become a vessel of destruction for 3 jobs on a party ho dealt a lot of damage, tank damage get increse with the expansion and the buff become mandatory.

[Llus]

imo balance can only be achieved if all tanks have access to certain key abilities.
Those would be:

- Slashing debuff
- (all type) damage down debuff
- similar damage output

In all other aspects the tanks can be very different.

This is part of where trying to fit PLD into a raid static tends to be difficult. Beyond the very low DPS compared to DRK and WAR, WAR is going to be THE go-to tank because of Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Even excluding deliverance stance and fell cleave; WAR can put out some pretty high numbers in DPS and are king of debuffs just with eye & path. While both PLD and DRK provide their own debuffs in the form of Reprisal and Rage of Halone, DRK gets an extra debuff with delirium putting them at an advantage for debuffs against magic users. Changes to some of PLD's skills in heavensward have made PLD even less desirable - moving goring blade into a >50 skill; means PLD has nothing for DPS in older fights - it's now just Rage of Halone. Changing the way shield swipe works means PLD's bulwark is fairly useless now; you used to be able to pop bulwark and shield swipe for days. Nothing about PLD stands out as useful in a raid situation. Their DPS is the lowest, their raid utility is severely lacking and couple that with the (still pervasive) idea that PLDs are the easiest tank to pick up and learn (hence noob tank); nobody wants them in a bleeding-edge static.

Both WAR and DRK are very well balanced around each other and WAR has been balanced around PLD since 2.x but PLD + DRK has no synergy. When it's a no-brainer to bring a WAR because of their Path + Eye debuffs and raw damage output; statics aren't left with much of a choice. Bring a tank that has 2 useful debuffs and comparable DPS or a tank that has 1 useful debuff and low DPS? Again, a no-brainer decision. SE needs to leave DRK and WAR alone and give PLD the raid utility and DPS they deserve (especially if you want to see bleeding-edge statics able to choose a DRK + PLD comp)

* PLD's blind and pacification is useless in end-game raiding, bosses can't miss and can't be pacified

[ADVSS]

I mean really besides the mp gimmick of drk, pld plays pretty similarly, If say they had to alternate a combo for an additional debuff or buff the gameplay(skill) wouldnt really be much lower than drk. Not saying pld dont because im sure they do to keep goring up, but still as mt or ot, besides popping DA every 2 combos how super different is it, oh yeah and keeping scourge and plunges when off cd

[Dzian]

for paladin they either need to change the entire games dps or gtfo meta to make defsive choices viable and actually desirable...
or they need to rework paladin into an offensive tank.... becase defence is just laughable...

you could pretty much just change 1 skill. divine veil. instead of having that as a buff that shields the entire party. make it offensive make it a divine buff to the parties attack power / attack magic power, and suddenly you'd find a lot of people looking at paladins... even if it worked by oath. shield oath you get the shield effect sword oath you get the attack power......

paladin would be instantly more desirable even with that one change. wouldn't even matter how much of an attack power boost it actually was.

either paladins need to move into a more offensive role, or the game needs to move into a more defensive meta than dps or gtfo

[Llus]

i disagree whit this in particular, the rest is nice, in HW change many thinks not only adding a new tank.
mp management was a think on healers, determination scale with autoattacks so sword oath was better, damage betwen PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference apart of the aoe and this one burn WAR tp like hell something that not happen anymore.
PLD have better mitigations tools,WAR have it a little worse but more versatile having the storm effects to complete the set, and parry scales a lot better making the shield more relevant that is now, and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks, WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD and being they equal in a balance betwen 2 not 3, if DRK was there from the 2.0 sure the WAR rework was better built to balance it betwen the 3 being all usefull in any combination.

Parry was and is still useless and has no effect with your shield. If you were tanking end-game with PLD in 2.x, you'd remember why you took a high block rate shield vs a high mitigation shield...

I challenge you to run any of the following at min-iLevel and still tell me there weren't heavy DPS checks:
Titan Extreme (heart phase large DPS check, gaol mini-DPS check and gaoler mini-DPS check)
Ifrit Extreme (nails DPS check)
Garuda Extreme (Chirada and Suparna DPS check)
Ultima's Bane - the whole fight is a DPS check as well as healing check
Coil - just about every turn has a DPS check

This is why the STR tank meta came about. Wars had the HP to withstand tankbusters with proper CDs while wearing STR accessories max-melded with VIT and PLDs would roll VIT accessories max melded with STR. Stance dancing was still a thing then and good PLDs would sword oath through most of the fight while WAR would keep defiance off.

[Llus]

for paladin they either need to change the entire games dps or gtfo meta to make defsive choices viable and actually desirable...
or they need to rework paladin into an offensive tank.... becase defence is just laughable...

you could pretty much just change 1 skill. divine veil. instead of having that as a buff that shields the entire party. make it offensive make it a divine buff to the parties attack power / attack magic power, and suddenly you'd find a lot of people looking at paladins... even if it worked by oath. shield oath you get the shield effect sword oath you get the attack power......

paladin would be instantly more desirable even with that one change. wouldn't even matter how much of an attack power boost it actually was.

either paladins need to move into a more offensive role, or the game needs to move into a more defensive meta than dps or gtfo

I seriously doubt that will happen. That meta has been around since 2.x and would require HUGE changes to implement. It will be easier and better for the entire community to simply give PLDs the offensive skills they need.
A change like that to divine veil would almost certainly make PLD the new go-to tank and groups would suddenly say PLD or GTFO. I agree, PLD needs help but it needs balanced improvements so that there's not this constant BiS party comp that excludes classes (MNK, PLD, WHM). SE needs to rethink these roles to make them, not just viable but, desirable with any party comp of 2 tank, 2 heal, 2 mele, 2 ranged

[Dzian]

I seriously doubt that will happen. That meta has been around since 2.x and would require HUGE changes to implement. It will be easier and better for the entire community to simply give PLDs the offensive skills they need.
A change like that to divine veil would almost certainly make PLD the new go-to tank and groups would suddenly say PLD or GTFO. I agree, PLD needs help but it needs balanced improvements so that there's not this constant BiS party comp that excludes classes (MNK, PLD, WHM). SE needs to rethink these roles to make them, not just viable but, desirable with any party comp of 2 tank, 2 heal, 2 mele, 2 ranged

oh no no I'm not saying it would happen. I was more saying any kind of defensive buffs to the job would just be lolled at if the meta doesn't change.

it would be the same as giving a whm even more powerfull heals in 4.0.... even something like aoe benediction... they'd just get lolled at cos still no dps......

my divine veil thing wasn't that well thought out to be honest it was just a quick example of how any kind of offensive utility would make pld more desirable. yet a hundred defensive buffs the job would still be a joke