PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

Ok looks like we need to step back to see what the hell you're talking about.

- You say that jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS and it should stay that way.
- I comment saying that it should not stay that way because it creates a meta and metas limit competitive player choice.
- At this point one would normally support their claim. In your case, you should've explained to me why you think that this phenomenon (where jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS) should be conserved.
- Instead, you avoid explaining this to me; you deflect the issue by trying to prove to me that every competitive game has a meta. Keep in mind at this point I have not said nor implied that competitive games WITHOUT metas actually exist. In fact I am aware of the fact that metas exist in competitive games. Competitive games will always feature picks that are superior to others.
- So yes, every competitive game has a meta. But how does that support your claim that "jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS (Summoner, Scholar, Dark Knight, Monk) [and it] should stay that way"? As of yet, you have yet to bring forward any justification for why you think so. So for sake of clarity -- and to avoid you going on another tangent -- I will ask you directly: why do you think that this phenomenon (where the more mechanically difficult jobs deal more DPS) should be conserved?

EDIT: I would really appreciate a direct response to this question.

[Reynhart]

Keep in mind at this point I have not said nor implied that competitive games WITHOUT metas actually exist. In fact I am aware of the fact that metas exist in competitive games. Competitive games will always feature picks that are superior to others.

"Competitive" games do not have a meta..."versus" games do.

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

Let's not get into a debate over rhetorics. My point is clear enough.

[Reynhart]

My point is clear enough.

Your point is. Chronos' tendency to compare the "meta" of FFXIV to other meta might need a bit of rhetorics.

And on that note...

Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

What is favored in rock-paper-scissors ?

[Lambdafish]

What is favored in rock-paper-scissors ?

This is a really bad example, because rock-paper-scissors is objectively and numerically equal on all sides, each beat one and is beaten by one, that is the rules. You cannot judge jobs in the game the same way because there is no numerical weighting to how much better something is. We know that SCH is better than WHM because SCH has a pet, but how much better is SCH because of this and what would need to be added to make WHM exactly as good? You are technically both right, but Chronons is more right in that it is very very hard, if not impossible for the devs to design content in a way that is both interesting and follows an extremely tight meta that won't be broken by the players, and that is something that is extremely limiting from a design perspective.

Technically all the tanks are weighted equally because PLD has better mitigation and worse damage, WAR has better damage and worse mitigation, and DRK is 50/50, but this is highly variable because damage is held in higher regard, and mitigation itself is variable from fight to fight (then there is things like difficulty to play, and the list goes on...).

[Sarcatica]

In case if anyone misses out on the best composition atm, DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH has been tested heavily by the top players and has proven to be by far the best one for about 2 months now. 6 jobs benefit from physical damage up while healers get foes from BRD. PLD (least dps, some turns utilizes Plunge really well), WHM (mana issue when DPS and no Balance cards), BLM (takes up DRG/NIN slot), SMN (same reason) and MNK (slightly more personal DPS while taking DRG/NIN slot without raid DPS buff).

This team called Deletemonk has been doing speedruns with impressive records on Creator, if you tune in Twitch you will see their NIN Momo doing the speedrun live. I very much doubt anyone at the top has issues with doing different jobs of the same roles because they are skilled at them. It becomes an issue of power shifting depending on the developers, nerfs buffs whatnot.

[Brian_]

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

Could you still clear with PLD? Sure. I don't think the point was that PLD isn't viable. The point was that it's not optimal and it isn't.

Does being optimal ultimately matter to most people? It depends. PLD wasn't optimal back in Gordias and it mattered because the gap was large enough to have a real impact on everyone regardless of skill or motivation. PLD isn't optimal in A12S but the gap is comparably much smaller so it matters much less.

Relative balance is what's important because absolute balance is basically impossible.

[Sarcatica]

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

I disagree that it is harder to clear with PLD in a12s, it was simply a case of PLD not using the right CDs.

In the earlier days, PLD used Rampart into Sentinel during the 2 stasis phase. This led to PLD not having Sentinel during 1st inception which was key. Little did we know that tweaking CDs made it way easier for PLD to survive tank busters even when tanking alone.

I was a believer that PLD taxed WAR into swap for tank busters but it was later debunked when a better CD rotation got out. Sentinel (1st stasis), Rampart (2nd stasis), Rampart (timegate), Sentinel (1st inception), Rampart (2nd inception). This rotation later on became incorporated into DRK as well because on how similar the CDs are to PLD's, extra on the DM for more mitigation that allows tanking outside of Grit with less healing needed. Obviously not optimal to bring PLD still, just illustrating that PLD has what it takes to clear a12s without any help from WAR.

For a4s exclusively, the tank busters hit very frequently at ~30secs in between iirc which at that time was the STR meta as well where everything was tight on max HP (17k hp). DRK had way better standing on that turn mostly because of DM with the 60sec CD. I remember I had to have my WAR swap for sure on the 3rd/4th leg while I tanked the fausts.

[Gumbercules]

Yoshi kinda already hinted at a "nerf" to war so i am expecting the tank meta to be reeled in a bit damage wise. This isn't bad in the long run if it is done right, just hoping w/e they do doesn't have heavy implications on solo play. Still i do not mean I see warrior and pld doing the same amount of dps for example, but seeing the payoff in survival being more noticeable. I can also possibly see a shift into penalizing "dps stance tanking" with built in weaknesses into the dps stances, bringing them more in line for OT situations across the board but heavily discouraging dps tanking overall. (hell if it was me id do like a counterbalance mechanic into it where the damage "boost" goes up alongside the "weakness" as ilvl increases.)

on the tank debuffs on mobs side, would it really be that bad of an idea if tanks had no "party wide" effects? I feel like this would open up more opportunities for dps combinations since a tank spot in a composition is pretty mandatory to begin with.