PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Llus]

If we want to do some balancing we can always start with making Parry worth something instead of just looking good on your Job's stat sheet. Physical resistances would be nice too. Let's do something with that.

I'm not going to comment on DPS changes when it comes to tanking. I'd rather be tanking incoming damage instead of pushing phases.

I'd rather be pushing phases. FFXIV's tanking meta is about mitigating tankbusters while managing fluff damage - both of these are easily taken care of with all tanks.

[Starkbeaumont]

imo balance can only be achieved if all tanks have access to certain key abilities.
Those would be:

- Slashing debuff
- (all type) damage down debuff
- similar damage output

In all other aspects the tanks can be very different.

[Sarcatica]

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.

Except that every job is able to still clear the hardest content, a4s was the only exception due to the huge amount of magic damage and mostly this type of balance influences more heavily on the week 1 world progression (speedrun for now) but not necessarily when the fights have been done weeks and months after and people still think WAR is a must and PLD is not viable. People are just being sheeps if they feel that PLD can't clear any content or the job makes it WAY harder to clear which is not true at all. People complain and overreating over balance issue when they aren't even raiding is like beating a dead horse. How do you know if there is a problem if you haven't tried it out yet? It's all speculation until proven.

I bet that some people now still think that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s which again is not true at all.

[Chronons]

snip

I dont think you quite understand.... The only thing you addressed is the premise, not the supplementary argument. I offered an argument, if you want to say its incorrect I welcome your critique of its conclusion or the leading logic. Thus far you have just repeated your own premise, introduced non relevant points, and attempted to reframe the discussion - although I am suspect to if you fully know what that means. Ive asked you to twice and repeated the actual counter argument to your position twice now. Probability dictates that it will go unanswered and you will continue to resort to your opinion as a point of argument. I will just leave it with "balance" is not necessarily "all things are equal", in fact it most often is "all things are given their due".

Every competitive game has a meta. So what's your point? lol.

I really think it SHOULDN'T stay that way because all it does is force competitive players into a meta

This........ This is my point..... I hope the irony isnt lost on anyone...

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.

Upon rereading and evaluating I agree with you, I apologize for mischaracterizing what you were saying with this.

Wrong. "Metagame" (which the term "Meta" is an abbreviation of) does not imply imbalance.

I do disagree with this though. A Meta implies there are some picks that are superior to others. There isn't a Meta if all choices are equal, people can just use whatever (no outside info influencing inside choices). The fact that you had to use the term "nearly balanced" suggests how difficult it is to point to a truly "balanced" Meta. I do want to clarify though, that in regards to clearing content I agree with you - a Meta should not dictate what players use. I dont see that as being much of an issue for causal/midcore play as it stands. However the whole discussion is about the competitive side of FFXIV. There, I think, it is perfectly reasonable for a Meta to exist.

[Reynhart]

Thus far you have just repeated your own premise, introduced non relevant points, and attempted to reframe the discussion - although I am suspect to if you fully know what that means.

Well, it's not my fault if you don't read properly...but let's try to rephrase it a little. There shouldn't be "mechanically easier but weaker jobs, only easier content".

This........ This is my point..... I hope the irony isnt lost on anyone...

What ? This is the exact opposite of your point. Your point is that this situation is perfectly logical as it is, and we should deal with it by changing jobs.

A Meta implies there are some picks that are superior to others.

Actually, no, that's not what it means. Metagame is the ensemble of strategies ar actions you would build outside of the game itself to counter other strats or action. The main problem is that metagame has risen in versus games. You know your opponent is doing such strat and you build your own strat to counter that. You have metagame in chess, RTS, Fighting Games and even Rock-paper-scissors...Problem is, in FFXIV, you don't have the versus part. The computer is always using the same actions regardless of what you do, what job you use, etc...And even if you stretch that a bit claiming that different content use different strat, tanks competitivy is the same in just every content, for the simple fact that "any tank should be survive anything" reducing tank's focus on "who does the most damage ?".

You want an example of real metagaming in FFXIV ? Let's suggest a boss that switch between magical attacks and physical attacks at set interval. Once under 50%, it locks itself into a single attack type. What could be considered metagame is "In what state do we want to lock him for the last 50% ?". If it's magical then a DRK MT is better, if it's physical, then a PLD MT is better...but you'd still end with a bring a WAR OT is both situations...

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

Ok looks like we need to step back to see what the hell you're talking about.

- You say that jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS and it should stay that way.
- I comment saying that it should not stay that way because it creates a meta and metas limit competitive player choice.
- At this point one would normally support their claim. In your case, you should've explained to me why you think that this phenomenon (where jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS) should be conserved.
- Instead, you avoid explaining this to me; you deflect the issue by trying to prove to me that every competitive game has a meta. Keep in mind at this point I have not said nor implied that competitive games WITHOUT metas actually exist. In fact I am aware of the fact that metas exist in competitive games. Competitive games will always feature picks that are superior to others.
- So yes, every competitive game has a meta. But how does that support your claim that "jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS (Summoner, Scholar, Dark Knight, Monk) [and it] should stay that way"? As of yet, you have yet to bring forward any justification for why you think so. So for sake of clarity -- and to avoid you going on another tangent -- I will ask you directly: why do you think that this phenomenon (where the more mechanically difficult jobs deal more DPS) should be conserved?

EDIT: I would really appreciate a direct response to this question.

[Reynhart]

Keep in mind at this point I have not said nor implied that competitive games WITHOUT metas actually exist. In fact I am aware of the fact that metas exist in competitive games. Competitive games will always feature picks that are superior to others.

"Competitive" games do not have a meta..."versus" games do.

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

Let's not get into a debate over rhetorics. My point is clear enough.

[Lambdafish]

snip

You are right that a more difficult to play job should have more advantages to it, that is how pros and cons are weighed, but this does not fix any of the issues. The solution then is to make PLD more challenging to play, to give it more to do, and some actual identity to its gameplay. Then it can be equal to WAR in its advantages, wouldn't you agree?

[Sarcatica]

In case if anyone misses out on the best composition atm, DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH has been tested heavily by the top players and has proven to be by far the best one for about 2 months now. 6 jobs benefit from physical damage up while healers get foes from BRD. PLD (least dps, some turns utilizes Plunge really well), WHM (mana issue when DPS and no Balance cards), BLM (takes up DRG/NIN slot), SMN (same reason) and MNK (slightly more personal DPS while taking DRG/NIN slot without raid DPS buff).

This team called Deletemonk has been doing speedruns with impressive records on Creator, if you tune in Twitch you will see their NIN Momo doing the speedrun live. I very much doubt anyone at the top has issues with doing different jobs of the same roles because they are skilled at them. It becomes an issue of power shifting depending on the developers, nerfs buffs whatnot.