PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Reynhart]

If you did this, the low skill jobs become the de facto meta.

Yes, it is, because Yoshi-P said so at one point, but his sentence was full of ignorance. Saying PLD is supposed to be the "entry level tank" is just stupid. You know what "entry level tank" is ? The 59 first levels.

I am saying that, because it is the truth.

Sure, this is true, when you look at how the game is now. The part where I disagree is that it shouldn't be that way. All jobs should benefit in a way. You should think about bringing a PLD over a DRK, a DRK over a WAR, a WAR over a PLD, etc...because they should all bring something equally useful in the party, in a different way, even in that something narrows down to "increase the overall party DPS".

This line of reasoning doesn't seem relevant to the discussion, by my understanding. Perhaps you could elaborate on the point your trying to make?

Let's look at FFI. In FFI, you start with basic jobs. But at one point you can upgrade these jobs to be more powerful even if managing them can be a bit tougher. The fact that WAR could be harder to play but more powerful than PLD could be a valid argument if PLD would evolve into WAR. (That's why no one complains that THM and LNC are not balanced at level 60) If you can do a whole career in one of them without ever touching the other (save for the soon-removed cross-class skills), the game has to make them equally useful.

Again, the game shouldn't brush balance off by saying "Well, go play another job"

[ADVSS]

For all we know, there may be an additional 5 skills for every job or even less. WAR/PLD will probably lose a few skills via the cross role system getting in place, especially paladin which seems to contribute a majority of tank cross skills. I can only assume that those skills wont be replaced in order to keep the amount of buttons around the same as they are currently in HW. OR they could replace the skills taken out with new ones, for that no one is certain besides the dev team. Ive said this before, but I felt like the skills given to pld post 50 were reallu catch up skills to keep them on par with the other 2 tanks who have all these combos at 50 already, however balancing a thematic job and a meta that just simply doesmt favor the fluff over raw damage, is the issue. If theres anything I agree on the most, was the statement that pld doesnt have to deall raw dps, but it could aid overall dps and put it more in line. I think the "balance" that bothers me is how DRK/PLD just isnt very desirable

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

That is what exists now. Jobs that are more mechanically difficult do more DPS (Summoner, Scholar, Dark Knight, Monk). It should stay that way.

I haven't played all of the classes/jobs yet, but for the sake of argument let's say that jobs that are more mechanically difficult do indeed deal more DPS. If this is the case, then I really think it SHOULDN'T stay that way because all it does is force competitive players into a meta; a limitation is essentially placed on the player's class/job choice if they want to play competitively. I don't see how limiting freedom of choice for competitive players = a good thing.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I am saying that, because it is the truth. Metas will develop when it comes to competitive play. There was a team comp meta for those trying to world first savage clears. Its okay if you don't want to follow that meta for anything outside of competitive play, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong.

Actually that does make it bad/wrong. If a Meta favors one or more jobs then the Meta is imbalanced and the imbalance needs to be corrected.

Team comp outside of 2 different tanks/2 different healers/2 different melee dps/2 different ranged dps should not matter in a world first race. The primary determiner for success in a world first race should be player ability to understand and perform fight mechanics.

[Chronons]

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You have still neglected to interact with my original counterpoint, which I find telling. I did not at any point say PLD is the “entry level tank” I said it is the most mechanically simple to play – that is a true statement. NO, you do not get to reframe the discussion to suit your narrative. I never said I had an issue with PLD being relevant in a competitive meta via balancing, I said I have an issue arbitrarily raising its DPS to be comparable to other tanks. If you were arguing that PLD should be tankier so that it makes more sense to bring it over another tank, I wouldn’t argue with you. However that is not the discussion at hand. Also, I am not claiming that the game should brush of balance by saying play another job. Im saying if you want to be the very best of the competitive spectrum you will need to evaluate what job you are playing. Those are two entirely different things.

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I would cite the numerous reddit pages of parsing data, or the numbers related to SSS dummies as empirical evidence for my claim. My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

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Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta. By your definition that would also be bad. Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears? This is a either a gross misrepresentation or misunderstanding of game design as a whole and beyond the need to address with reason.

[Reynhart]

You have still neglected to interact with my original counterpoint, which I find telling.

Your original counterpoint...you mean this :

Jobs that are harder to play should do more DPS than jobs that are easier to play.

Which I answered with this :

No, they shouldn't. If you do this, you basically have jobs for low-level, and jobs for high level. All jobs are supposed to be equally wanted in a party.

and this :

Every job (in the same role) should be able to do contribute the same DPS wise (personal of by party utility) at the same mastery.

And then I explained that if you're able to level one job without any other (save cross-class), then this job should be equally competitive in endgame, because "Go play another job" is not an acceptable balance fix ?

I did not at any point say PLD is the “entry level tank” I said it is the most mechanically simple to play – that is a true statement.

Yes, it is designed to be mechanically simpler. Why ? Because Yoshi-P wanted it to be the "entry-level" tank. I didn't reframe the discussion, the link is right in front of you...

I never said I had an issue with PLD being relevant in a competitive meta via balancing, I said I have an issue arbitrarily raising its DPS to be comparable to other tanks.

But, according to the meta, not bringing a DPS increase to the party is not being competitive in the meta.

If you were arguing that PLD should be tankier so that it makes more sense to bring it over another tank, I wouldn’t argue with you.

Everybody knows it wouldn't do anything for PLD to be tankier. People do not want tankier tanks, they want moar DPS.

I'm saying if you want to be the very best of the competitive spectrum you will need to evaluate what job you are playing.

You shouldn't. If you want to be the very best, you should master the job you chose. Again, balance is not "Go play another job"

My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

What ? What does this have anything to do with the discussion ?

Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta.

There's a difference between increasing PLD's personal DPS, and tweaking it so that it can increase the party overall DPS. And no, it shouldn't reverse the meta, you just have to build several options for different. Last time I checked, tanks and healers are the only roles where there is a clear favor on one job.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears?

So, according to you, having three tanks equally competitive is the same as allowing 8 DPS party for top content ?

In case I haven't said it enough time, the most blatant flaw in the game design is fixing all balance issue by "Go play another job".

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

My rebuttal to your statement would be, please provide me with a competitive game that does not have a meta.

Every competitive game has a meta. So what's your point? lol.

[ADVSS]

im sorry in my experince mrd/drk feel more like entry level tanks, i didnt find myself chasing adds in brayfloz or warly dungeons like i had to with pld, but keep in mind pld was my main and first job in 2.0....

[Sarcatica]

It is a silly thought when you want a meta-less competitive game. Even more ironic to say that competitive in FFXIV rarely happens, I wouldn't call normal run of Creator Savage competitive too. At the current stage only speedrun is categorized as competitive, WAR has remained for 3 cycle raid patches and obviously something is wrong but that doesn't mean that WAR is the best tank in the game due to how long their CDs are and by nature of how WAR wants to be in Deliverance, please don't start on how IB is OP because no serious WAR stays in Defiance for even a second of it, especially true when you have above 90 percentile team for Creator mostly because of how lenient checks have become.

Competitive games always has meta picks, when some things get nerfed, some other picks become meta and it's a cycle. Balance has a nice ring but it is folly at best because the top players will always find what's best to bring.

You are not convincing me in one bit on the competitive side because very little amount of groups do speedrun now. The large portion of balance issues only comes when you are pushing the limits of each job, also why casters/mnk/whm/pld are all in the same spot due to the other remaining jobs being better for personal and the team in DPS alone. Mnk is not even much better on personal dps either when you objectively compare the number to drg or even nin at this point.

Edit: How many of you here have cleared a12s at least once?

[Ultimatecalibur]

Which is why I suggested that arbitrarily increasing PLDs DPS would simply reverse the meta. By your definition that would also be bad. Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

Wrong. "Metagame" (which the term "Meta" is an abbreviation of) does not imply imbalance. All there is to a Metagame is the use of out-of-game info to influence in-game choices. In a balanced/nearly-balanced metagame many out-of-game choices (such as which 2 of the current 3 tanks you bring to Full Party content) should have very little to no effect on players ability to successfully complete content. SE should seek to make the game such.

So you are suggesting that team comp should have zero impact on gameplay? We should have teams of 8 bards doing world first clears? This is a either a gross misrepresentation or misunderstanding of game design as a whole and beyond the need to address with reason.

Did you even read my post?

Team comp outside of 2 different tanks/2 different healers/2 different melee dps/2 different ranged dps should not matter in a world first race.

This should mean a raid static would contain:

• Tank 1: War, Drk or Pld
• Tank 2: War, Drk or Pld but not sharing a job with Tank 1
• Healer 1: Ast, Sch, or Whm
• Healer 2: Ast, Sch, or Whm but not sharing a job with Healer 1
• Melee Dps 1: Drg, Mnk, Nin or Sam(?)
• Melee Dps 2: Drg, Mnk, Nin or Sam(?) but not sharing a job with Melee DpS 1
• Ranged DpS 1: Blm, Brd, Mch, Rdm, or Smn
• Ranged DpS 2: Blm, Brd, Mch, Rdm, or Smn not sharing a job with Ranged DpS 1

As long as those comp "rules" are followed pretty much any comp should be able to complete all highend Full Party content only limited by player skill development rates.