Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Lambdafish]

In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

[Dsync]

If the party doesn't like the way someone is playing and feel that it's a detriment to their playstyle then I've heard they have every right to remove that person.

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

Then my Paladin will just Flash spam. I mean, I'm just there to keep hate, right?! I'm sure between us and the dps 1-2-3'ing we can get the dungeon completed with a couple of minutes left. There's no requirement for the DPS to do anything more than press one button that does damage going by your method of play. They're still doing damage after all.

"everyone has to work harder because I can't be bothered to use any of the DPS abilities they gave me" = kick

[Neophyte]

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicks it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.
A keeper which refuses to shoot a the opponents goal, even if he has in some kind of way the perfect opportunity to do that... is "bad", respectively his action. How many "bad" actions do you need to call someone "bad" at something?


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

[Sylve]

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

./sigh
My first post. Which clearly hasn't been read properly. Funnily enough, the attitude i have towards healing is strikingly similar to those who keep trying to portray me as having the "I REFUSE TO DPS WHILE HEALING" attitude.
Maybe people should actually read more than the first lines of a post.

Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.



Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

TL;DR
I joked about needing to spam heals and then went on to describe that not only do i DPS while healing, but that i would also support and enjoy a dedicated healer job whose primary role was to deal damage while healing.

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicked it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

Neither of those were part of your original post.

like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was "minimal good"? Never ever.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

[Neophyte]

Neither of those were part of your original post.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

[nekuxdesu]

Of course it is. Its not respecting the content.

[Watachy]

Of course it is. Its not respecting the content.

Nice joke, i died.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

[Sylve]

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".



It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

Actually, In my example (based off Neophytes first post), The goalkeeper simply never had an opportunity at the ball, since the rest of his team was good enough to keep it in the opposing half of the field, where the goalkeeper shouldn't be. Does that make him a bad member of the team? He performs his role perfectly well, But doesn't get a chance to perform a secondary role.
Not saying that goalies have never scored goals (I've seen some incredible shots). My example should only be taken in context to what it was replying to.

In the case of healers, if the tank and/or party is taking a beating and at risk of death, can you reasonably expect them to abandon healing just to eke out some more dps to appease the angrier members of this community? Because that is frequently the mindset of those who most strongly push healers into DPSing. Not saying ALL of those, but a fair number.
If we liken that to the goalie, then should the goalie take a shot at the ball if it means the opposition will score a goal?
All i've been trying to do this whole time is point out that not every healer you meet in a DF is going to have the personal skills, gear or party that lets them DPS as freely as others might.
Its situational, dependent on several factors, the most important being how comfortable the healer is with performing the additional role of a DD.
I'd rather clear it in a few more minutes than risk losing even more time to wipes or raised DDs with weakness.

[Crysten]

Mediocrity makes you awesome

I don't understand your logic at all here.

My primary dungeon strategy on SCH is to let Eos do the heavy lifting while I DPS.

So you're saying that I could do the bare minimum (Summon > afk) and that makes me a good player and not a lazy fuckwit? I mean, I'm performing my primary role just fine as long as no one dies, right?

How is that any different than the hundreds of healers that Medica II and then literally stand around doing nothing?

At the end of the day, from a tank/DPS perspective in dungeons I solve the heal only problem by taking more risks. I'll tank in Sword Oath/Deliverance/Darkside or intentionally get hit with non lethal AOEs to keep my DPS high. Both parties get a win win that way.

Lazy healers get triggered, heavy healers get something to do and the party gets more DPS!