Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Lambdafish]

In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

[Sylve]

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

./sigh
My first post. Which clearly hasn't been read properly. Funnily enough, the attitude i have towards healing is strikingly similar to those who keep trying to portray me as having the "I REFUSE TO DPS WHILE HEALING" attitude.
Maybe people should actually read more than the first lines of a post.

Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.



Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

TL;DR
I joked about needing to spam heals and then went on to describe that not only do i DPS while healing, but that i would also support and enjoy a dedicated healer job whose primary role was to deal damage while healing.

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicked it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

Neither of those were part of your original post.

like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was "minimal good"? Never ever.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

[Neophyte]

Neither of those were part of your original post.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

[Sylve]

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".



It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

Actually, In my example (based off Neophytes first post), The goalkeeper simply never had an opportunity at the ball, since the rest of his team was good enough to keep it in the opposing half of the field, where the goalkeeper shouldn't be. Does that make him a bad member of the team? He performs his role perfectly well, But doesn't get a chance to perform a secondary role.
Not saying that goalies have never scored goals (I've seen some incredible shots). My example should only be taken in context to what it was replying to.

In the case of healers, if the tank and/or party is taking a beating and at risk of death, can you reasonably expect them to abandon healing just to eke out some more dps to appease the angrier members of this community? Because that is frequently the mindset of those who most strongly push healers into DPSing. Not saying ALL of those, but a fair number.
If we liken that to the goalie, then should the goalie take a shot at the ball if it means the opposition will score a goal?
All i've been trying to do this whole time is point out that not every healer you meet in a DF is going to have the personal skills, gear or party that lets them DPS as freely as others might.
Its situational, dependent on several factors, the most important being how comfortable the healer is with performing the additional role of a DD.
I'd rather clear it in a few more minutes than risk losing even more time to wipes or raised DDs with weakness.

[Campi]

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

In normal Dungeons only FoE is neede, and a Brd with a perfect Rotation uses it.
The other Songs aren't needed there.

Healers who don't dps, are just lazy and want a free carry.
If the other 3 in the party would only press a button every 10sec, then it will be hard to clear the dungeon.

[nekuxdesu]

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

Of course you would, what kind of question is that?

[Sylve]

Of course you would, what kind of question is that?

A simple one actually. With your answer seeming to be "Unless you're perfect at your job, you're bad".

In normal Dungeons only FoE is neede, and a Brd with a perfect Rotation uses it.
The other Songs aren't needed there.

Healers who don't dps, are just lazy and want a free carry.
If the other 3 in the party would only press a button every 10sec, then it will be hard to clear the dungeon.

I would like to point out the value in using Army's Paeon between large pulls in 4 mans, especially when your second DD is TP based.
There is also value in Warden's. Especially for Warriors, as it prevents pacification as well as clearing it if applied late.

And yet there are many BRDs who do not sing Foes Req.
I've also never seen a Bard in DF use Warden's on themselves or others, expecting the healer to Esuna/Leeches.

So it's acceptable for a Bard to ignore part of its toolkit in 4mans despite there being occasions to make use of them, but Healers cannot ignore part of theirs when the use, or lack of, does not impact the success rate of the duty in question?

[Masekase_Hurricane]

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

Both are bad players one is lowering his own damage and the other is lowering the parties damage. So by your logic a SCH is not bad if he doesn't get his fairy out or an AST isn't bad if they don't use their cards, well as long as they just heal and everyone lives.

Actually, In my example (based off Neophytes first post), The goalkeeper simply never had an opportunity at the ball, since the rest of his team was good enough to keep it in the opposing half of the field, where the goalkeeper shouldn't be. Does that make him a bad member of the team? He performs his role perfectly well, But doesn't get a chance to perform a secondary role.
Not saying that goalies have never scored goals (I've seen some incredible shots). My example should only be taken in context to what it was replying to.

Actually the goalkeeper would be still doing a secondary role every time he kicks the ball into the opposing teams side of the field. If a goalkeeper wanted to do the bare minimum he would just keep passing it to his team in his half. So yes if that goalkeeper takes no risks doing goal kicks that may go to an opposing player then yes he is a bad goalkeeper.

Everyone can do the bare minimum but if the team fails due to this expect a kick/disband or called out for it.