Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Sylve]

A damage dealer or tank who fulfills their primary role with minimal efficiency to clear the content is not a good player. A healer is not exempt from that, and to say otherwise is completely ignorant of how the game has been designed.

The fact that they're clearing content makes then a minimally good player. Just good enough to get by. If they tried, they could become a great player. Maybe even an excellent player if they really put effort in.

A bad player is one who fails duties, dragging down the players they're grouped with. There is no grey area with that. You can be 'good' enough to clear basic content. But any kind of 'bad' is enough to fail duties.

Choosing not to DPS as a Healer, or choosing to focus on the 'Tank' side of Tanking does not inherently make you a bad player. Not everyone is on the bleeding edge of skill and/or gear.

If you're attempting Savage level content, Then you can be expected to perform at the best you can, which includes maximizing damage dealing while Tanking and Healing. But thats about the only place anyone can reasonably expect others to be performing at max level.
In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant. You're going to get all kinds of players with varying degrees of experience and skill.
Just because you have an overgeared friend or FC mate who manages to turn the DPS on full blast while keeping the party full in a 4 man duty does not give you the right to expect that of every single healer that joins you via duty finder.

[GMERC]

If you're attempting Savage level content, Then you can be expected to perform at the best you can, which includes maximizing damage dealing while Tanking and Healing. But thats about the only place anyone can reasonably expect others to be performing at max level.
In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

[Rita1989]

The only reasonable excuse not to DPS as a healer is your new and not comfortable with the job yet and even then you should gradually learn it on easier content like dungeons so once you get to harder stuff your used to stance dancing

[Neophyte]

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicks it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.
A keeper which refuses to shoot a the opponents goal, even if he has in some kind of way the perfect opportunity to do that... is "bad", respectively his action. How many "bad" actions do you need to call someone "bad" at something?


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

[Masekase_Hurricane]

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

[Neophyte]

A bad player is one who fails duties, dragging down the players they're grouped with.
There is no grey area with that. You can be 'good' enough to clear basic content. But any kind of 'bad' is enough to fail duties.

So, outside of ex/savage content there are no "bad players"? I had one timeout once in Amdapor (nm) back in 2015 in a dungeon, so I guess there are only minimal good, good, great and excellent players out there?

Also I don't get why people judge the players instead of their actions.
Doing nothing is bad/lazy.
Doing overheal is bad/lazy.
Being lazy is bad.
If you're not dpsing and your party members don't drop like flies, you're most likely doing one of the above. Which is not "minimal good", it's just plain bad.


Saying bad players exist only in failed duties, is like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" play then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do almost nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was a "minimal good" strategy? Never ever.

Also we're not talking about "new players", "inexperienced players", because I think that the healers in this thread, mentioning they never dps, are neither new nor inexperienced.

"Minimal good" isn't a proper term, even... So Cure III single target (which still makes the target survive) is just "minimal good"? I always thought it's bad.

[Watachy]

Also I don't get why people judge the players instead of their actions.
Doing nothing is bad/lazy.
Doing overheal is bad/lazy.
Being lazy is bad.
If you're not dpsing and your party members don't drop like flies, you're most likely doing one of the above. Which is not "minimal good", it's just plain bad.

Insert ~Apply cold water to that burn~ meme

[Lambdafish]

In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

[Sylve]

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

./sigh
My first post. Which clearly hasn't been read properly. Funnily enough, the attitude i have towards healing is strikingly similar to those who keep trying to portray me as having the "I REFUSE TO DPS WHILE HEALING" attitude.
Maybe people should actually read more than the first lines of a post.

Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.



Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

TL;DR
I joked about needing to spam heals and then went on to describe that not only do i DPS while healing, but that i would also support and enjoy a dedicated healer job whose primary role was to deal damage while healing.

Seems you really like strawmans.

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicked it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

Neither of those were part of your original post.

like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was "minimal good"? Never ever.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

[Neophyte]

Neither of those were part of your original post.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.