Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

[Felis]

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

DPSing as a healer kickable? no
not healing as a healer kickable? yes

different playstyle is allowed, so long the player don't neglect his main task

[LuckiGoLucki]

A few of my FC buddies and I just had a big debate on this. We all went into Dun Scaith for the week and our other healer for our party would start of Scatach in cleric stance and she would just try to nuke. Meanwhile, our Tank, the MT, also in our FC would get dangerously close to death because our other healer, my husband, was being over worked trying to main heal the tank and the rest of our party. Long story short, many of us came to the point where we said we wished dps abilities were removed from all healing classes upon entering a dungeon or raid. Too often do we run into idiotic healers who cannot seem to prioritize when they should be healing/dpsing.

[Yeol]

If the different playstyle is causing the group or you an issue then yes you can vote kick the player.

- Tanks doing small or large pulls.
- Healers dpsing or not dpsing.
- Handeling mechanics differently.

All these things can be reportable. IF they are harming you.


I doubt healer dpsing during their downtime can harm anyone

[RLofOBFL]

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.


Anyway personally I would'nt vote kick a healer for healing every 15 secs & standing around the other 14, but it gets on my nerves & they aren't getting my comm for doing the bare minimum :x

[GMERC]

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.

Anyway personally I would'nt vote kick a healer for healing every 15 secs & standing around the other 14, but it gets on my nerves & they aren't getting my comm for doing the bare minimum :x

Our attitudes are the same. Unless somebody's being really insufferable I just try to nudge cleric-shy healers into coming out of their Shells (a pun that would work better if we had a standalone Shell spell in this game) and trying their best. I've coached some of the more receptive folks on the ins and outs of it and more than a couple have come out of it realizing how each healer is equipped to make healing easy and open up opportunities to attack. Sometimes it really is easier to teach a bad player than it is to replace them and just make them wall up and insist they were right and you just bullied them, other times you just have to quiet down and let a bad player stay bad because you realistically aren't always going to have a replacement who can jump in and take their place.

In the end, it's my belief that stubborn, lazy "healers are supposed to heal because that's what they're called!" folks probably just had one bad experience with trying to contribute offensively and completely shut down the idea of ever trying it again, and becoming better players.

[seekified]

According to the GMs, you can kick anyone for pretty much any reason.

On this particular topic, I can safely say that I would be bored out of my mind if I didn't DPS as a healer, because I would actually just be standing around doing nothing. I don't understand how people find that fun, but to each his own. Those healers won't get my commendation unless something else goes spectacularly wrong and they salvage the situation, but I certainly won't kick them as long as they perform their primary task.

[LuckiGoLucki]

Even the Novice Hall tells you to use attack magic in downtime, maybe some of you should visit that.

I think it's the healers themselves that need to go back and visit the Novice Hall so they can learn what "downtime" is! It's sad because I've seen some pretty amazing healers out there who can dish out the damage and keep everyone above 90%. The problem is that MOST healers, and I'm gonna say I've seen this problem with WHM more often than not, cannot seem to stop nuking once they start. Or they will coast through a dungeon just dpsing and then casting Benedition on the tank once in a while. This is what is causing a shift in the community towards eliminating dps from healing classes in instances.

I've gone into dungeons where Tanks immediately ask the healer to focus on healing. That seems like a premptive fear reaction to me... Yet on the other hand we all know that no gamer likes to be commanded on how to play their class.

[Sylve]

Saying healers aren't supposed to dps is like saying tanks can just afk spam flash or dps can just spam a 1-2-3...

The Healer role is to keep the green bars in the green.
The fact that it can hit things when all the bars are as green as they can get is purely secondary.


The Tank role is to keep the angry things from splatting the squishy things.
The fact that it does damage is purely secondary.

If a healer in my run is refusing to DPS, but keeps people alive, i don't care. I'd rather finish the run with no deaths but take 5 minutes longer than have a Healer who fails at his/her Primary Role.
If a Tank in my run is just spamming Flash and the enmity combo, I don't care. As long as the squishy things don't get squished, the Tank can do whatever he likes. I'd rather have a Tank that does crap damage but succeeds at his Primary Role than a Tank who runs without using Tank stances or enmity combos.

Success at their Primary Role clears duties.
Failure in their Primary Role fails duties.

Succeeding in both is absolutely preferable, to be sure.
However, "They made my run take 5 minutes longer to get Tomes" is NOT an acceptable reason to be vote kicking anyone. Not in my book.

I think it's the healers themselves that need to go back and visit the Novice Hall so they can learn what "downtime" is! It's sad because I've seen some pretty amazing healers out there who can dish out the damage and keep everyone above 90%. The problem is that MOST healers, and I'm gonna say I've seen this problem with WHM more often than not, cannot seem to stop nuking once they start. Or they will coast through a dungeon just dpsing and then casting Benedition on the tank once in a while. This is what is causing a shift in the community towards eliminating dps from healing classes in instances.

I've gone into dungeons where Tanks immediately ask the healer to focus on healing. That seems like a premptive fear reaction to me... Yet on the other hand we all know that no gamer likes to be commanded on how to play their class.

Ironically, the reason for those healers who cant seem to stop nuking long enough to heal is a direct reaction to constantly being heckled to DPS at the expense of keeping people alive, particularly newer players while leveling through dungeons.

Those Healers who are DPSing constantly while keeping the party alive aren't necessarily better than Healers who don't DPS, They just have a better understanding of the duty they're in and the way the damage comes at the party within said duty.
People need to allow Healers to gain that understanding naturally. Not just demanding that they DPS at any time they're not actively casting a Healing spell.
Downtime is something a Healer learns while doing duties. And yet the majority of people who advocate DPS above the primary role of healing are failing to understand that crucial difference.

When a healer knows when heavy damage is incoming, they can plan accordingly.

[Vhailor]

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

It's not a morally legitimate reason, but as others have pointed out, SE's guidelines are (intentionally) vague, so it's not really an action someone can get into trouble for. I do suspect, though, that vote-kicking more frequently targets healers who twiddle their thumbs for half a dungeon because they are loath to cast any offensive magicks.

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

This is just lazy. If you have downtime and MP to spare, then cast some offensive magic. Otherwise, you're simply giving healers a bad name.

My opinion is that healers should heal and thats it. none of this dps nonsense. You are a healer, why are you dpsing but thats just my opinion on the matter. (que the 'healers should dps as well remarks")

This Debate is a big one and is on going, on one side ppl say healers should dps, the other they shouldnt. unfortunately one side likes to attack the other *cough "heals should dps" side*

It's important to distinguish between 'ideal MMO design' and what is currently present in FFXIV. I think healing should be intensive enough that it's a full-time job, but that's not how FFXIV is designed. The average dungeon run doesn't require anything close to a healer's full attention (obviously there are exceptions, which healers should adapt to), and healer damage doesn't strain the ability of a tank to hold hate. Given these facts, saying "healers should only heal" in the context of FFXIV is patently absurd.

This isn't a 'debate' between two competing philosophies with equally valid positions. It's a divide between a group of players who remember that they're playing FFXIV, and a group of players who want to ignore that fact and cling to principle.

Dont get discouraged by the shaming. You're right to do as you do. As long as the party is alive, and the DPS doesn't need to use their own healing cause they're dying in a corner, keep at it. Seriously, don't let us die ;_;

This isn't helping matters. There's a difference between not letting DPS die (i.e. focusing as much on healing as need be, up to 100% of the time if your gear / skill / party requires it) and taking a hard-line position to never DD. I've had some groups as a White Mage where the DD and tank can largely go through a regular pull without more than a Regen spell or two thrown their way; are you seriously going to support a healer who looks at that situation and says 'awesome, I get to watch Netflix while running the dungeon'?

The poster you quoted should absolutely be shamed. Trying to cram every situation into a rigid philosophy (one that, coincidentally, gives them a giant free pass for lazy dungeon running) practically begs for such an outcome.

[RLofOBFL]

I just think it is unbelievably frustrating when the team is giving it their all & the healer is literally using cure every 5 seconds when I have 33K-41K HP & only took 4K damage. So I"d survive another 45~ seconds at least on HP alone not considering Equilibrium(8K)/Thrill of battle(9K)/Clemency(8K)/Souleater(2K)/Hallowed Ground/Bloodbath/Abyssal drain(700 per enemy) OR my many many defensive CDs.

The above only really applies to dungeons, in relevant normal Raids, Savage, & EX primals I can understand not wanting to DPS most of the time to prepare for oncoming damage, but Savage raiders actually DO damage AND manage to keep everyone alive, not that I expect that from every player but it is possible, and I think that is a sign of truly skilled people.