Monk 3.0 CHAKRA UNLEASHED

[Lilyth]

Average crit rate is accounted into that, balance and HC will be up for the 2nd one, you won't get ST into TA unless you're using a gimped opener, so the only one not accounted for is BL.

Your second one won't have Pot, Litany, B4B, IR. Even if HC and Balance are still up, you would make much better use of them combined with more buffs since it all stacks multiplicatively. It also ensures every single ST aligns with IR and possibly other raid buffs assuming it's used on CD. But eh, not worth discussing over so little. Like I said, it's a matter of preference at this point.

[Krindor]

snip

I added the numbers for it to be easy to read but you still don't seem to get it do you, in the multipliers posted on the first one there's the multiplier for crit(including IR), BfB, GL3, DK and TS and pot, the second one has a raw one (1) + the 2nd ST which is crit multiplier w/o ir, TS, DK. Typed out we get 1*1.3(GL3)*1.4(Crit multiplier with IR) * 1.1(BfB) * 1.1(Pot) * 1.1(DK) * 1.1 (TS) * 1.1(HC) * 1.1(Balance) = 3.22 or 322 potency. For the second one we have 1 + (1*1.3(GL3)*1.19(Crit multiplier) * 1.1(DK) * 1.1(TS) * 1.1(HC) * 1.1(Balance) = 1 + 2.265 = 326.5, in terms of potency using ST first then later is higher potency by 4.5, therefore there's no reason not to use it on pull in terms of potency loss.

[Lilyth]

Snip

Sigh. There's a lot more than merely adding potencies together. Why do you think everyone uses all their CDs during their fully buffed openers, and not before? Using it first (so it comes off CD faster) is not the best alternative.
Sure, according to the numbers you presented, it's 4.5 higher potency if we assume we'll get an extra use of ST during the course of the fight. That should happen around 2/3 of the time. Yes, if there are absolutely no breaks, no invulnerability moments, nothing that would prevent usage on CD of such skill. Let's also completely ignore that ST is a CD that you might wanna save on certain moments because of its mobility purposes.

If you do get an extra use, assuming two thirds of the time, you'll get 4.5 more potency. 4.5 more potency 2/3 of the time, looks great right?
Except, if you do not get an extra use, assuming 1/3 of the time, you'll lose 226,5 potency.
I'll let you do the averages here on who will net more DPS over fights.

Now is that 4.5 potency gain still looking great?
How about how every single IR will buff ST if it's used on the opener and not before?

Anyway let's move on. If people wanna still engage with ST, let them. The difference is not worth any more discussion.

[Krindor]

snip

The reason people use their CDs is of course as you say due to multipliers, but depending on how it lines up and on the CDs they may or may not use it early. And to be honest any skilled player would not follow any standard opener and adjust it per fight. Like you said, it's a minimal difference but my original goal was to prove that this "It always boggles my mind when I see monks starting with ST even on fights like A9s and Zurvan Extreme" is completely viable and the difference shouldn't matter as it's not a large enough one that anyone would be caring about.

Also, you wouldn't lose 226.5 unless the fight or phase was less than 30 seconds(There's none right now). You would be losing 187. In terms of proper potency calculation the difference would be 322 to 265(I'll let you guess how I came up with that one) in favor of using it with all buffs up.

EDIT: Just for the hell of it, Zurvan is the type of fight wherre ST first will be better, the phase is 48 seconds long, in theory the quickest you can use ST is 49, and realistically 50.

[JinRoSul]

1) The main job quest gives you item level 90 gear now and you get 110 and up gear from the main story quest after you hit 50 so you shouldn't have to worry about gearing it up

2) like in 4, the rotation is pretty simple and easy to figure out! It won't take you long to memorize the opener on a dummy. There is stone sky sea now which is helpful it resets your CDs so you can do opener immediately again after trying it.

3) Yeah you should, sometimes it doesn't work for some fights or people are just lazy or like your first hit it doesn't make a huge difference in the long run.

4) Basically yeah you just want to keep everything up all the time without clipping the timers too much (people use fracture to delay a GCD here or there for this)

Thanks for the reply! Sorry it took me so long to respond but it's been a busy few days.

[Lilyth]

EDIT: Just for the hell of it, Zurvan is the type of fight wherre ST first will be better.

No, it is not. ZurvanX, just like Nidhogg, is the type of fight where you can change/optmize your opener for maximum dps due to early phase transition. If you can't figure out why using an unbuffed gap closer on a boss that is right next you at pre-pull, literally at melee range, isn't the brightest idea, I won't bother trying to explain why.

[Krindor]

No, it is not. ZurvanX, just like Nidhogg, is the type of fight where you can change/optmize your opener for maximum dps due to early phase transition. If you can't figure out why using an unbuffed gap closer on a boss that is right next you at pre-pull, literally at melee range, isn't the brightest idea, I won't bother trying to explain why.

I'm well aware of why, if it's something I know it's how stuff works in the game and also spend a lot of times looking and logs and seeing what everything is causing, ie the 700ms you lose out on by using ST. But what makes it so fun to discuss is that you've yet to be able to use any actual math to prove it, starting with failing to read simple potency calculations and then following it with a different argument yet not even using the correct potency for it. I don't know how much you would be able to explain to me if you can't even figure out simple potency caluclations.

[SunnyHirose]

I've already given my spiel. Someone who says things like "I won't bother trying to explain", "not worth any more discussion", "But please, you keep implying", and misconstruing what others are actually saying (and I'm afraid I must say you have not accurately represented what I have said) is probably more invested emotionally than logically. Anyone can understand being strapped for time. Anyone can understand exasperation that loads of misinformation is out there. But truth surely does not spring from thought-terminating clichés; truth is in fact infamous for coming about long after it would have been useful to know.

In response, I assert that the good monk is welcome to actually say what the good monk means to say, but few people like a conversational tyrant; not in the moment. Although I cannot force anyone to feel a certain way, I should at least point out this is a way of holding yourself hostage to your own beliefs, correct ones or otherwise. Some people understand this as a child. I didn't understand it till last month. Putting it to good use will take longer. Perhaps I am correct less often for it, but it has been a serious relief to not be annoyed all the time, and now I find I cannot recommend that others fall into this trap, even knowing that in the past I could never be told or shown this, even knowing that it must be learned over and over.

I wish to continue this conversation in good faith because Monk has not been getting much love lately. This conversation fails that criterion. Be water, my friend.

[Haaki]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking about alternatives for the supposed BiS with 1300~crit and I came up with this http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ZZ88

1002/1000 crit+det. I know the stat weights are not as high but can anyone actually confirm this wouldn't be just as good or better than 1300/600 crit+det? I mean, auto attacks account for like 25-30% of our total DPS.

I don't have the gear to test this but would be awesome if someone had it for testing purposes (or if it has already been tested?)

[Krindor]

Hey guys,

I've been thinking about alternatives for the supposed BiS with 1300~crit and I came up with this http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ZZ88

1002/1000 crit+det. I know the stat weights are not as high but can anyone actually confirm this wouldn't be just as good or better than 1300/600 crit+det? I mean, auto attacks account for like 25-30% of our total DPS.

I don't have the gear to test this but would be awesome if someone had it for testing purposes (or if it has already been tested?)

Can simply test this with the formulas available, after around 600 crit per point will always give more than det per point. Due to crits quadratic growth, the more you put into it the even better it gets.