Revelations from Patch 3.5

[CGMidlander]

So technically when we defeated Bahamut he wasn't at full power. The primal that Ilberd was summoning was suppose to be more powerful than Bahamut, who caused a Calamity. If it is Rhalgr than that makes sense--a partial summoning of the Twelve was used to try to power the seal to permanently contain Bahamut because a full summoning would have destroyed all life on Hydaelyn. It took another primal with Tupsimati and basically a death-powered summoning to even make a dent in Bahamut at full power. Rhalgr is only one of the Twelve but worship of the Twelve predates the Allagans and it is implied that they are on a completely different level than other deities in Eorzea. With his sacrifice and Tupsimati, Papalymo only bought the Scions time. I want to know what Elidibus is playing at since "kill everything" is not his usual style.

/10character

"Bahamut full power" (The one that destroyed FFXIV 1.0) had thousands of years to charge in a moon-sized container full of dragon batteries.

Ilberd's thing did not. Unless he found some way of gathering huge amounts of aether in a very short amount of time that alluded even the Allagans, it's unlikely that it would have compared to full Bahamut.

I think people are underestimating it.

We don't know how much aether the eyes still possessed. At multiple times throughout the story it's been implied that the eyes are effectively limitless in their power. Ilberd is also the first summoner we've seen to perform a self-sacrifice as part of the ritual. The original extreme primals highlighted that sacrifice directly increases the strength of the summoned creature so there's no telling how much more powerful a deiform summoned by self-sacrifice would be. Ilberd seemed convinced that it would be more powerful than even Bahamut though, and the Dreadwyrm was so powerful that we couldn't face him head on as it was.

The eyes are unlimited in that they absorb surrounding aether over time, but they can still be drained over the span of something short like a fight. If that were not the case, then we could not have defeated Thordan or Nidhogg, whose forms were sustained by aether.

Self sacrifice isn't likely a huge augment. (Especially that of a mere one person. The other dead people were not voluntary.) It helps, but if it really does modify summonings to >Bahamut levels, then you'd have huge threats popping up all the time, what with all the crazy cults & desperate inhabitants everywhere in Eorzea.

[Naria]

"Bahamut full power" (The one that destroyed FFXIV 1.0) had thousands of years to charge in a moon-sized container full of dragon batteries.

Ilberd's thing did not. Unless he found some way of gathering huge amounts of aether in a very short amount of time that alluded even the Allagans, it's unlikely that it would have compared to full Bahamut.

Granted this is basically speculation but if it is Rhalgr then he has been worshiped for millennia as well--longer than Bahamut was trapped in that moon, and likely by a much larger population. From my understanding it was the faith and not "dragons are a great source of aether" that was empowering Bahamut. I can't go look through the CSes to confirm atm since Aether Datacenter is (ironically) down.

If it isn't who I think it is then yeah my argument doesn't have much to stand on.

[Mysteltain]

Granted this is basically speculation but if it is Rhalgr then he has been worshiped for millennia as well--longer than Bahamut was trapped in that moon, and likely by a much larger population. From my understanding it was the faith and not "dragons are a great source of aether" that was empowering Bahamut. I can't go look through the CSes to confirm atm since Aether Datacenter is (ironically) down.

If it isn't who I think it is then yeah my argument doesn't have much to stand on.

I'm pretty sure Primals gain power at two points. The first point is when they are initial summoned, and that power is the result of the crystal/aetheric offerings and the prayers of their followers. Ilberd had the prayers and aether in spades for this, as did Tiamat when she summoned Bahamut. The second point is the continued prayers and offering of aether after the Primal is summoned. It's this second point that made Bahamut so absurdly stong: he had millenia of prayers from a large number of his brood that were confined with him inside of Dalamud. Ilberd's Primal--be it Rhalgr or something else--will never receive the amount of aether or prayers that Bahamut did for that reason: the time between summoning and its eventual release will not be that long.

Of course, I could also be completely off base with this assumption, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Alberel]

The eyes are unlimited in that they absorb surrounding aether over time, but they can still be drained over the span of something short like a fight. If that were not the case, then we could not have defeated Thordan or Nidhogg, whose forms were sustained by aether.

Self sacrifice isn't likely a huge augment. (Especially that of a mere one person. The other dead people were not voluntary.) It helps, but if it really does modify summonings to >Bahamut levels, then you'd have huge threats popping up all the time, what with all the crazy cults & desperate inhabitants everywhere in Eorzea.

Well the difference between the original Hard Mode primals and their extreme variants was that they were summoned via ritual sacrifice instead, using the carved bones of sacrificial victims to augment the power of the primal. That was a single sacrifice in each case.

Ilberd was drawing on the desperation of hundreds, if not thousands, of dead and dying on a battlefield to augment his summoning rite. He even specifically says that the sheer desperation of the dying for anything at all to save them can act as a replacement for faith. We've never seen anything summoned under such extreme circumstances before. We have no way to truly gauge its strength besides Ilberd's own claim that it would be more devastating than the Calamity. The fact Papalymo judged it worth his own sacrifice merely to buy the Scions time makes plain that he believed Ilberd's claim as well.

Don't forget also that people only know how to summon because the Ascians teach them. If there is some super special technique that summons much more powerful things it's meaningless if the Ascians haven't taught anyone that technique. With the understanding of how the equilibrium of light and dark works as of 3.4 it's obvious that the Ascians wouldn't actually want everyone summoning the most powerful primals possible anyway. If sacrifice augments the strength of a primal (and it does, the extreme primals made that very plain) it doesn't mean everyone knows about it.

/10characters

[Ibi]

He even specifically says that the sheer desperation of the dying for anything at all to save them can act as a replacement for faith. We've never seen anything summoned under such extreme circumstances before.

I'd argue that we have.

Wasn't Phoenix summoned under similarly extreme circumstances?

[Alberel]

I'd argue that we have.

Wasn't Phoenix summoned under similarly extreme circumstances?

Come to think of it:

Yes, you're right. Whilst the original summoning of the Twelve to restore Dalamud was performed using the collective faith of the entirety of Eorzea, the creation of Phoenix was born of their desperation when the Twelve failed them. The situation at Baelsar's Wall is very similar.

Come to think of it, is it not then possible that Ilberd may actually have created a new primal as Louisoix did? In both cases the faith component of the summoning ritual was replaced with undirected desperation. The summoning was not focused on a specific deity. I wonder now if Ilberd is truly dead... He may have actually become a primal.

[Ibi]

Come to think of it, is it not then possible that Ilberd may actually have created a new primal as Louisoix did? In both cases the faith component of the summoning ritual was replaced with undirected desperation. The summoning was not focused on a specific deity. I wonder now if Ilberd is truly dead... He may have actually become a primal.

The last part is possible, the first part is more up in the air.

The concept/mythology of Phoenix certainly wasn't new, based on Louisoix's comments post-T12: "This drifting energy responded to the prayers of those fighting below- and to my own desperate wish that the dying realm be saved- by infusing me with the power of a primal. I became the immortal Phoenix, ancient symbol of rebirth." I don't think we have sufficient information to know if it was ever actively summoned as a primal before, but I suspect that if a line between primal and ancient symbol even exists, it's pretty blurred.

It's also unclear how exactly Phoenix was chosen as the entity that Louisoix became. Was it a convenient form for the situation or a conscious choice on the part of Louisoix?

Ilberd's comments suggest that the latter is certainly a possibility: "I will call upon a deity more terrible than the very black wyrm of the Calamity itself!" He certainly has a specific entity in mind, and seems to believe that he has control over the results of the summoning. Of course, it's also possible that he knows that Ala Mihgans, in their time of need, would universally call upon Rhalgr to protect them, as the dying resistance soldier whose last wishes we hear does: "Mighty Rhalgr... Grant us... the strength... to c-crush... our..." As an Ala Mighan, it's also not unreasonable to presume that that's who Ilberd himself would call upon.

As far as the last sentence goes, I'd say not just "may have", he probably intended to: "You say no mortal should wield these eyes? Then I shall gladly become a demon."