@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[StarRosie]

What variety would it bring DPS?

Outside of being one of the two possible first DPSes with an actual sword? Yeah, that would be variety right there, I mean we have fists, spears, guns, magic but no sword for DPS? Odd don't ya think? Yes Red Mage could fill that too but Red Mage can fill plenty of roles and I honestly think it is leaning over towards Healer. But that's me I guess.

You make the argument for Variety, but it seems you want notoriety, you want a class that is famous, not that fits, but is just instantly recognizable. Just as you make the arguments that it is just my opinion, and that the devs can make SAM seem more interesting and separate from the others, the same argument can be made for any of the alternatives I suggested. So in all honesty, the whole point is moot cause both of us will just refuse to move from our position. I agree that tanks should be thrown a bone, but I also think before that, the devs should sit down and address the issues with the tank role.

Also to address a point you make...

If the devs are intent on adding multiple jobs each expansion, then yes, they should be adding 1 of each role, period.

The devs and especially Yoshi have said they will never do 3 jobs per expansion again, the work load, on top of creating all of Ishgard, all of the story for Heavensward and so on and so on, stacked with designing, programming and balancing 3 new jobs, was far too much for them. They barely made the HW Deadline. So, no. No "Period." cause I would rather the devs do their best work then stressed work where they barely make it across the finishline. So now, the whole balance between the pillars argument hits an issue, one of the roles will always get the shaft during expansions.

Other issues such as not being able to use their LB are irrelevant to adding new jobs to the game.

No, that is not irrelevant, you are suggesting we merely treat a symptom by just adding new jobs to keep the tank role happy rather then address the disease as a whole and fix the problems with the tanking gameplay. It is astronomically silly that tanks have an LB system that they will never use because there is no point. So why even have LBs for tanks? Oh but that doesn't matter, just give them a new job and they'll be satisfied right? Instead of fixing the tank gameplay, you just want to be given more jobs. That right there is not caring about the health of the game. Not someone arguing against SAM being a tank.

Anyways, I think I am going to stop here. I'm going off the rails here and there and that's not good for the thread and going through all this is shooting my stress levels up and I can't have that. So, I'll just bow out and agree to disagree. If you wish to discuss this further in a more casual enviroment, feel free to PM me in game since we both seem to be on Balmung. But yeah, I feel a bit stressed out and that if I keep going here, I am gonna get heated and I would rather avoid that. So do have a lovely evening.

[Shippuu]

Outside of being one of the two possible first DPSes with an actual sword? Yeah, that would be variety right there, I mean we have fists, spears, guns, magic but no sword for DPS? Odd don't ya think?

So, nothing substantial. Got it. Visual appeal because of a weapon type is pretty irrelevant. One could say the same thing still for SAM Tank. We don't have a dual wielding tank yet.

You make the argument for Variety, but it seems you want notoriety, you want a class that is famous, not that fits, but is just instantly recognizable.

I've given an abundance of reasons why Samurai as a tank is one of the most logical choices for a new Tank job from many aspects. It fits in every single category to be a tank in this game and the only negatives are quite literally "It uses a sword" which is hardly a strong counter argument because aesthetics and weapon diversity are hardly a make or break point. To say I want it purely for notoriety is ignoring all the other credible reasons I've put forth. It absolutely fits in every way as a potential tank.

I agree that tanks should be thrown a bone, but I also think before that, the devs should sit down and address the issues with the tank role.

Once again, these can be addressed simultaneously. To put a bogus stipulation that you can't do one until something else is magically fixed. Especially when that something is quite literally impossible to actually fix, only mitigate and incentivize. If you had your way, there would never be a new tank job added because there isn't a way to fix the stigma.

The devs and especially Yoshi have said they will never do 3 jobs per expansion again, the work load, on top of creating all of Ishgard, all of the story for Heavensward and so on and so on, stacked with designing, programming and balancing 3 new jobs, was far too much for them.

Unfortunately the context of Yoshida's statements about this was also in reference to how they released Ninja shortly before in 2.4. It's much more likely the comment was in reference to developing 4 jobs simultaneously, especially releasing one in a patch cycle and not an Expansion. To say it was only the development of 3 jobs is dishonest. On top of that there has been other later statements from Yoshida that imply there will be 3 new jobs once again.

You also need to consider what it looks like from a PR perspective. SE is big on maintaining appearances and maintaining their brand. So much so they remade FFXIV almost from the ground up because it was a commercial failure. To release their first expansion with 3 jobs, and then follow it with their second expansion only delivering 2 jobs, gives off the appearance the company/game may not be doing as well, which is an image they are likely wary of giving off right now. As a result, even if it was a nightmare to develop them before, they are likely to get it done still regardless because to not do so could make negative press.

They barely made the HW Deadline. So, no. No "Period." cause I would rather the devs do their best work then stressed work where they barely make it across the finishline. So now, the whole balance between the pillars argument hits an issue, one of the roles will always get the shaft during expansions.

Yet they're ahead of schedule for Stormblood, as well as potentially having an increased budget from the HW one. You're speaking in pretty strong absolutes there without having anything to actually substantiate it.

No, that is not irrelevant, you are suggesting we merely treat a symptom by just adding new jobs to keep the tank role happy rather then address the disease as a whole and fix the problems with the tanking gameplay. It is astronomically silly that tanks have an LB system that they will never use because there is no point. So why even have LBs for tanks? Oh but that doesn't matter, just give them a new job and they'll be satisfied right? Instead of fixing the tank gameplay, you just want to be given more jobs. That right there is not caring about the health of the game. Not someone arguing against SAM being a tank.

Your only example of something "broken" with tanks is that they don't get to use their LB's, really? Healers rarely get to use theirs either, but you're not claiming their role is broken or trying to use it as an excuse to prevent them from getting new jobs. Treating a symtpom while developing a cure alongside it is entirely possible. Again you're of the mindset they can't do one until they do the other, when they can do both simultaneously. It's BS you demand that the players wait until they come up with some master cure before they can have anything else. That's preposterous.

So, I'll just bow out and agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

[Shippuu]

Really in the end it more of the question if SAM as a Tank is enough to actually get people to play a Tank job Role in Group content.

That all depends on if the job is fun to play and if there is appropriate incentive. That has nothing to do with the name or archetype. Dark Knight has a lot of appeal, but if people don't like the way it plays they won't play it, regardless of it's role or responsibilities in a duty. Again though, a new tank job doesn't need to fix this issue to be justified being added to the game.

We have plenty of people playing Tank Jobs now but it is for non-group content because they only want to play the Tank Job for Vanity sake.

That sounds like something that would be asbolutely hard to actually prove. Even then, they still leveled the job, in which case it was either providing queues for people in dungeons etc. or at least bodies in FATES/POTD.

One can argue in the short run of maybe 2 or 4 months there is a increase in Tank Queue time for Group content and a decrease in DPS time for Group content but it comes down to where that decrease/increase is affecting the game.

2-4 months during the release of an expansion when you want to make the best impression on new and returning players to get them to stay subscribed. Sounds like an excellent reason to do it to me.

If it is endgame stuff then introducing SAM as a Tank Job was a success but if that effect is only for leveling content then it has not actually affected Tank Job Role as planned since leveling content often ends with the player dropping that Tank Job for max level group content thus the queue has not changed for the Max level content which is what most people wishing for SAM Tank would fix by increasing the Max level content population for Tank Jobs. Better queues for leveling contents is fine but the true aim for introducing new Tank Job will certainly focus more towards how the endgame is affected.

Even if people quit at max level, still had positives of providing leveling dungeon/content queues that should not be dismissed simply because they stopped when they hit max level. That is still a benefit on the whole and another valid reason to do it still. Once again, adding stipulations that new tank jobs must "fix" this problem is preposterous still.

Either way SE certainly have their work cutout for them no matter which Job becomes a Tank in 4.0 since they have to start looking beyond Sword user Jobs for future Expansion Tank Jobs if they don't want their development team to be questioned with their "creative ability" when it comes to developing new Jobs.

They really don't have to look beyond sword user jobs if they don't want to. If they want every tank to use a sword then they can do it. There's no magical rule that says there must be sword dps, or that there can only be X amount of sword tanks.
The creative team gets questioned about their "creative ability" over everything, I'm sure they're used to it by now.

[SpookyGhost]

I've given an abundance of reasons why Samurai as a tank is one of the most logical choices for a new Tank job from many aspects. It fits in every single category to be a tank in this game and the only negatives are quite literally "It uses a sword" which is hardly a strong counter argument because aesthetics and weapon diversity are hardly a make or break point.

For you. It wouldn't be a make or break point for you. Because you clearly like Samurai and since your main job is Marauder here (aka WAR) then I'm going to connect the dots and say you like tanking as well. Your dream is for SAM to be in the game and be a tank.

However there's no reason for SAM, specifically, to be both in the game and be a tank. Currently we have 2 sword-wielding jobs, both of which are tanks - "dual wielding" isn't unique enough to merit another sword tank. It's just not. DRK only gets a pass because it's the first new tank and having a double up on sword tanks is fine if the next tank isn't a sword tank. But here, for some reason, everyone (well, specifically you, since your posts have made up a large portion of this thread) wants yet another sword tank. It doesn't need to be this way, we could have other weapons - hammer, mace/dual mace, lance, etc.

On top of this, SAM could very easily be a DPS - the only human "tanks" in irl combat use shields (even that's a bit of a stretch), the samurai are just glorified standard fighters - having armor doesn't inherently make one a tank in this game, look at DRG. At least as a DPS it could be a bit unique.

I get it. We need more tank jobs. I agree. But what we do not need is a 3rd sword tank. We need something different.

[Galaktica]

Geez, give the development team some credit lol. This isn't exactly some small detail that they just somehow overlooked. When designing something as massive and integral to the game as a whole, such as a brand new job, I can say with the utmost certainty that there was a lot of back and forth between members of the team and they made what they felt was the right decision for the job.

Whatever choice they made, they're not going to suddenly change it because of one thread. One thread where the opinions are split down the middle btw lol.

Also, serously? "It does or doesn't need to be [nisert role here] because it has a sword"?!!? That's the most asinine reasoning you can come up with. How about, you know, the actual mechanics? If the SAM plays fundamentally different than a DRK, then why shouldn't it be tank? It doesn't have to be a dps just because of it's weapon. Besides, a SAM sword and DRK sword are two very different things. It's probably safe to say that their stance (e.g. the way they stand during combat) will be pretty distinct too meaning you should still be able to pick them out a glance if you're worried about that for some reason.

I have no horse in this race btw. I'm simply saying some people would benefit by taking a step back and tackling this from a more objective point of view.

[Radacci]

It's true that 60% of the people who hate tanking will not tank however, the other 40% will play the job because of it being samurai. So it would increase the numbers of tanks. Perhaps not by a huge percent but somewhat.

that's what they said about nin and drk too...well it didn't happen; no one is going to switch role, just for SAM, unless they like the role.
let's say SAM is tank - ppl who like SAM, but not tank, are going to be disappointed, and not play it. I like DRK theme, but most of the time i don't want to tank, so i don't play DRK very often...It's same with SAM...if they make it tank, i'll only play it occasionally, when i'm in the mood to tank...which i haven't for the past few months.
also they will release other jobs too, and level cap 70, so ppl will be playing all jobs. also it goes both ways; some ppl will drop tank role to play new dps jobs, so no, number of tanks won't increase.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

So, nothing substantial. Got it. Visual appeal because of a weapon type is pretty irrelevant. One could say the same thing still for SAM Tank. We don't have a dual wielding tank yet.

What i got to say to this is Samurai has typically always wielded a single sword. FF X-12 they wielded 2h swords. In FF XI they wielded a 2h sword i think (not really 100% sure for XI). Even FF Tactics and other games they wielded 2h swords. So i would have to say that they will most likely not dual wield. That's just my opinion. Square could end up just making them dual wield for whatever reason.

That said, I still want Samurai to be a DPS.

[Ragology]

I think this is one of those situations where the brancing class system could have been used in full effect resulting in both jobs being awesome choices like what happened with Summoner and Scholar.

In this case we'd have a tank class that branches out into either a tanking job (Samurai) or a lighter armored dps version (Ronin perhaps?)

In real life, Samurais are the fighters that have masters while Ronins were your traditional wandering swordsmen, so that'd explain why samurai could afford expensive thick armor while ronins had to settle for cheaper, lighter gear.

[Rahdah]

If SAM is DPS, who will be the tank of expansion ? I think SAM only can be tank.

[Shippuu]

However there's no reason for SAM, specifically, to be both in the game and be a tank. Because swwwoooorrrddsssss

Yeah, nah.