Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Reynhart]

Personal dps does matter when it bolsters raid dps. Using the numbers you suggested, sure. But that's almost never the case.

IIRC correctly, that's how MNK, DRG and NIN are balanced, right ?

This seems like common sense; if you stop attacking an armored knight in order to cast a spell, they are going to stop defending and will proceed to beat the tar out of you.

Not necessarily. If PLD's spells were meaningful, it could be a great time to cast a really powerful defensive spell, without fearing interruption, to anticipate the next set of attacks.

[Sarcatica]

IIRC correctly, that's how MNK, DRG and NIN are balanced, right ?

The thing about raid DPS is both NIN and DRG have all the good utilities and they can output comparable damage. MNK becomes the selfish DPS that doesn't offer anything else other than the huge damage that matters way less than the 2 counterparts buffing the group raid DPS. No DRG means no Litany and your BRD/MCH will QQ. No NIN means no TA and that your MT will QQ. Both DRG and NIN give additional DPS that the raid enjoys which outweighs heavily the personal DPS that MNK brings. This is why you don't see any serious speedrun taking MNK, PLD (Faust Z parse has a 0:57 timing with PLD but the fight is short enough that PLD can still be used). Off calculation (i know its wrong to just compare 1 skill but whatever), FoF has more than 1/2 uptime VS Darkside at full uptime which means that you can "say" that FoF at face value wins by about 50% damage (overall 15% dmg from FoF for 1/2 uptime vs 10% dmg from Darkside for full uptime). Brain cancer-ed myself. Normally you have 1/3 uptime for FoF (that's 10%), but for this fight you enjoy about >>15% because it ends faster (0:57 timing), compare that to the flat 15% for full uptime for Darkside.

[Reynhart]

The thing about raid DPS is both NIN and DRG have all the good utilities and they can output comparable damage.

I think we can agree than reducing the time you stay in tank stance only increases your personal DPS. We could have utility skills for PLD and/or DRK (Since stance dancing is more clunky for them) not tied to stance dancing that would still increase raid DPS.
For example, PLD could have a Block skill on GCD. Meaning that it would take significantly less physical damage than WAR or DRK by blocking constantly (and would automatically sacrifice DPS), thus would require a lot less healing, increasing healer's room for DPS. As an OT, PLD could use its mitigation skills on the MT (adding it to the MT's own mitigation), allowing it to stay out of tank stance even for tankbusters, etc...

Off calculation (i know its wrong to just compare 1 skill but whatever), FoF has more than 1/2 uptime VS Darkside at full uptime which means that you can "say" that FoF at face value wins by about 50% damage (overall 15% dmg from FoF for 1/2 uptime vs 10% dmg from Darkside for full uptime).

Sorry, perhaps I don't understand your point exactly, but FoF has 1/3 uptime so 10% on average, and Darkside increases damage by 15%.

[Sarcatica]

I think we can agree than reducing the time you stay in tank stance only increases your personal DPS. We could have utility skills for PLD and/or DRK (Since stance dancing is more clunky for them) not tied to stance dancing that would still increase raid DPS.

That only applies to the DRG/NIN to the full 8 people benefiting from the buffs. It doesn't apply to tanks because that affects (kinda) how your healers heal you (even then, your tank stance uptime should be as long as you can take when you are speedrunning). When your mitigation is enough, anything else can be easily tunneled to DPS. PLD doesn't do anything too special either, block is not going to do anything much and again in speedrun, you are aiming to kill bosses ASAP and I can say for sure, DRK is better at this, you just have more CDs to use in a shorter fight. So no, I don't agree with "staying in tank stance" increases your raid dps. RUSHERS cleared A12s in less than 10mins. What do you think the tanks DPS at? Yep, at 1.5k++. I did almost 1.4k as DRK without AST, got 10:24 timing for A12S.

Alexander Speedrun tab: https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/13#boss=37&metric=speed

We have been at this for so long, IDK what to say anymore. There is no point to stay in tank stance because this topic is the skill gap you are witnessing, not because "tanks should be in tank stance to enable healers to dps more". It doesn't work that way if your healers are not good in the first place.

OPEN your eyes and see why these healers can still DPS and most of the healers you meet can't even heal properly. Same as most tanks and DPS. This is the skill gap between top raiders and majority of players.

[Reynhart]

So no, I don't agree with "staying in tank stance" increases your raid dps. RUSHERS cleared A12s in less than 10mins. What do you think the tanks DPS at? Yep, at 1.5k++. I did almost 1.4k as DRK without AST, got 10:24 timing for A12S.

So, basically, you're saying "Tanks can never increase raid DPS apart from stance dancing because staying in tank stance doesn't increase raid DPS now"...well, yes, it doesn't now, because the fights are only designed around this meta...that's the problem.

That's why I use, you know, words like "could" or "would"...

We could have utility skills for PLD and/or DRK not tied to stance dancing that would still increase raid DPS.

The game already has issues keeping three tanks and three healers balanced with this meta, what do you think will happen if we have a 4th one of each in Stormblood ?

Besides, speerunning is a totally different concept.

[Sarcatica]

The game already has issues keeping three tanks and three healers balanced with this meta, what do you think will happen if we have a 4th one of each in Stormblood ?

It's nothing new, there is always going to be the best jobs to bring to raid no matter what game you are in, top raiders just have to prepare themselves to be in that position to milk the future OPs.

EDIT: to elaborate, in all games anything near to perfect balance will never be achieved hence why you see defined metas, this applies heavily to the minority (top players) that affects the majority. When everything is balanced, game becomes stale and ofc no one wants that. When game introduces more fun things like utilities to whatever classes, guess what? There will still be no balance. People just tend to do whatever optimal and if you have been in games that top players have high influences, you will see the trend in that fashion.

[Reynhart]

It's nothing new, there is always going to be the best jobs to bring to raid no matter what game you are in, top raiders just have to prepare themselves to be in that position to milk the future OPs.

On paper, yes. But in reality, the less metrics you use, the easier it will be to point what setup is the best, especially since tanks have fairly low synergy with other jobs. That's why I'm suggesting to change/add some skills to include different ways of contributing to DPS.

Maybe I'm repeating myself too much, but I really like the idea of an OT PLD using Rampart or Sentinel on someone else, which would allow the MT to stay out of tank stance even for tankbusters.

People just tend to do whatever optimal and if you have been in games that top players have high influences, you will see the trend in that fashion.

Even that can be avoided in a way, by creating more synergies with different jobs. For now, NIN loves WAR because they bring the slashing debuff. You could create a synergy between PLD/DRK and some DPS (or healers). This way, unless everybody start to play the same job, you could have different equal setup. "If you have that job, it's better to bring this tank, if you have that other job, it's better to bring this healer, etc..."
Is it difficult to balance ? Yes, it is. But it's the only way you can continue adding more and more jobs without some of them being thrown out of the elite loop.

[Frowny]

Even that can be avoided in a way, by creating more synergies with different jobs. For now, NIN loves WAR because they bring the slashing debuff. You could create a synergy between PLD/DRK and some DPS (or healers). This way, unless everybody start to play the same job, you could have different equal setup. "If you have that job, it's better to bring this tank, if you have that other job, it's better to bring this healer, etc..."
Is it difficult to balance ? Yes, it is. But it's the only way you can continue adding more and more jobs without some of them being thrown out of the elite loop.

Agreed 100%. Would be nice to have more synergies beyond "WAR/SCH required".