Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[MomomiMomi]

I hope you realize that the only reason the SAM from XI argument even continues now, is because you brought up the trait as an example of tanking to begin with.

If you didn't want to discuss SAM in XI, you shouldn't have brought it up. You brought up SAM in XI, which introduced it as a discussion topic.

That it "didn't work" is a result of, again, XI's poor balance. PLD and NIN were just that much better. And we already know that NIN was never meant to tank. That it could tank doesn't suddenly make people think that the image of a ninja is that of a tank. What the players use things as has nothing to do with the job's design. The players are always going to use things in the way that benefits them the most, intended or not.

Tank balance got worse in endgame as they tried to balance the game around NIN tank existing, which made things far worse for every other job; even PLD couldn't keep up with the amount of damage being dished out anymore and had to resort to using /NIN just to stay alive. Even though other jobs had clear examples of tanking abilities, if you don't make them as good as the best, they're never going to be used, because the game has to be balanced around the best thing available to the players.

Again, I have to always point this out because you folks can't read or understand past certain points of words, I'm not saying SAM can't or shouldn't be a tank. I'm saying that nearly all arguments for it to be a tank, can be used to argue benefits that DPS partake in (including the risk vs reward Overwhelm trait). Other posters have even agreed on that point lol.

And it seems it has to be pointed out again that DPS doesn't have to be argued for. What are you going to say, that having Sentinel lets you stay alive longer, therefore letting you be a better dps, so Sentinel can be used as an argument that a job should be dps?

Yes, you can use that as a valid argument. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[Welsper59]

If you didn't want to discuss SAM in XI, you shouldn't have brought it up. You brought up SAM in XI, which introduced it as a discussion topic.

That it "didn't work" is a result of, again, XI's poor balance. PLD and NIN were just that much better. And we already know that NIN was never meant to tank. That it could tank doesn't suddenly make people think that the image of a ninja is that of a tank. What the players use things as has nothing to do with the job's design. The players are always going to use things in the way that benefits them the most, intended or not.

Tank balance got worse in endgame as they tried to balance the game around NIN tank existing, which made things far worse for every other job; even PLD couldn't keep up with the amount of damage being dished out anymore and had to resort to using /NIN just to stay alive. Even though other jobs had clear examples of tanking abilities, if you don't make them as good as the best, they're never going to be used, because the game has to be balanced around the best thing available to the players.


And it seems it has to be pointed out again that DPS doesn't have to be argued for. What are you going to say, that having Sentinel lets you stay alive longer, therefore letting you be a better dps, so Sentinel can be used as an argument that a job should be dps?

Yes, you can use that as a valid argument. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

What are you talking about? How did Sentinal come up at all from that statement?

I did mention before that people do understand that DPS is part of the equation for anything, but some were against the idea completely, as is the case of the first person I replied to (which you then followed up with your nonsense).

If there is one thing i have leares through all of these SAM DPS/ Tank threads it's this: The vocal majority would rather bastardize the concept of a real world warrior culture that for generations held up fundamental ideals of honor, sacrifice, and duty to others before and at the cost of their own lives (Bushido being not unlike a Knights Chivalry), for the sake of less role responsibility in a fantasy based mmo ...

The saddest part? In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, they want to cut out a Samurais role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell. The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

Bolded and underlined for importance. This is the second time I'm repeating where it all came from, and you were part of it since the start or just mindlessly jumped in without understanding what was being said. I brought up SAM from XI in that they existed and they weren't nefarious or evil, but they still used swords/katana as a DPS type of role. Someone else even pointed out pirates to counter the backstab with swords remark. Faulty arguments everywhere. In came you with your arguments about me falsely saying all ronin are dishonorable and (out of nowhere) claiming I said they couldn't do a tank role.

Power corrupts, this is true for all people of all time periods of all ethnic back grounds. I was addressing the concept of both Bushido and Chivalry and the fantasy of adhering to those values to truly earn the name of Knight and Samurai. In this game we are Warriors of Light we are heroes, no class, no job in this game is depicted as corrupt because we as the players are depicted as paragons of those tenets.

Once again I say "In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, You want to cut out a Samurai's role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell", remember this is Final Fantasy by choosing to "unlock" those jobs we live out the fantasy of being those paragons of those virtues.

He said nothing about dps or tank. He said that Samurai will uphold Bushido, arguing against you saying ronin is a good example of SAM not being a tank and instead fighting dishonorably. Because if we get Samurai, it most likely isn't going to be dishonorable. That goes against the core of fantasy Samurai.

Notice his use of "role" there. When we're talking about roles, and the topic of tank is where he starts his arguments about RL history and fantasy lore, what do you think he's referring to by "role"? I said his arguments did not justify tank, because other examples exist of virtue and honor from outside the meatshield role. He even said "DPS" in his first comment. Don't lie and say he didn't say anything about DPS or tank.

So yeah, you can keep putting the blame on me, but the entire ridiculous argument came up because of you having failed to comprehend words.

[MomomiMomi]

What are you talking about? How did Sentinal come up at all from that statement?

I've brought up that SAM has a tanking stance in XI. But clearly that doesn't matter because apparently having a tanking stance can be used to argue for it being a dps.

Notice his use of "role" there. When we're talking about roles, and the topic of tank is where he starts his arguments about RL history and fantasy lore, what do you think he's referring to by "role"?

Obviously he meant that Samurais in real life were tanks. Is this where I roll my eyes?

[Welsper59]

I've brought up that SAM has a tanking stance in XI. But clearly that doesn't matter because apparently having a tanking stance can be used to argue for it being a dps.



Obviously he meant that Samurais in real life were tanks. Is this where I roll my eyes?

He said nothing about dps or tank.

At yourself? Sure. I mean you're clearly ignoring everything else he said about DPS not having a sword for reasons, and claiming no mention of tank or DPS was stated. It's hard to admit you were wrong, so it's fine. Not to mention ignoring everything else I've stated that contradicts your own arguments.

Also, yes a defensive stance can be argued to exist on DPS, simply because it can be argued as a survival mechanism, something many jobs have (like my mention of MNK). You have Seigan for your defensive stance, that only buffs Third Eye and allows for a low chance to counter (with or without TE). You pop Seigan and TE, all avoidance potential is used up after 10-20sec, you're left with 40-50sec of low chance to counter as your justification of it being able to tank uniquely from other DPS that also have tank-like properties. No additional abilities to mitigate damage without needing to rely on a subjob, where even then, it needs to deal with extensive cooldowns once the next TE is used up and another 40-50sec are left remaining unmitigated reliably.

Sounds like a great tank, right? Maybe it sounds a lot more like the defensive abilities I've mentioned other jobs have to survive temporarily until an actual tank can take over.

[MomomiMomi]

At yourself? Sure. I mean you're clearly ignoring everything else he said about DPS not having a sword for reasons, and claiming no mention of tank or DPS was stated. It's hard to admit you were wrong, so it's fine. Not to mention ignoring everything else I've stated that contradicts your own arguments.

Okay, I get that this is the internet. But sarcasm isn't that hard to detect, is it?

Also, yes a defensive stance can be argued to exist on DPS, simply because it can be argued as a survival mechanism, something many jobs have (like my mention of MNK). You have Seigan for your defensive stance, that only buffs Third Eye and allows for a low chance to counter (with or without TE). You pop Seigan and TE, all avoidance potential is used up after 10-20sec, you're left with 40-50sec of low chance to counter as your justification of it being able to tank uniquely from other DPS that also have tank-like properties. No additional abilities to mitigate damage without needing to rely on a subjob, where even then, it needs to deal with extensive cooldowns once the next TE is used up and another 40-50sec are left remaining unmitigated reliably.

Sounds like a great tank, right? Maybe it sounds a lot more like the defensive abilities I've mentioned other jobs have to survive temporarily until an actual tank can take over.

This isn't a temporary ability like the defensive abilities that dps get. Seigan is a recast of 1 minute with a duration of 5. It's a full-time defensive stance, which cannot be used at the same time as their offensive stance. And no, your defensive abilities are not down for 40 seconds, wrong again. It's a 30 second recast.

[Welsper59]

Okay, I get that this is the internet. But sarcasm isn't that hard to detect, is it?

It actually can be, but good on you.

This isn't a temporary ability like the defensive abilities that dps get. Seigan is a recast of 1 minute with a duration of 5. It's a full-time defensive stance, which cannot be used at the same time as their offensive stance. And no, your defensive abilities are not down for 40 seconds, wrong again. It's a 30 second recast.

I never said Seigan was temporary, I said the other jobs have temporary survival abilities, and that Seigan by itself isn't much of a "tank" argument. Once again, failure to read. EDIT: Actually no, I'm wrong on Third Eye on that, yeah. Deleted the previous sentence. Seigan bonus. So let me ask this then... why was SAM never used as an actual tank? Real question, since apparently it has so many great qualities. I mean, even with TE at 30sec, there's still the very real threat that you lose it right off the bat... what do you do then? Pop subjob cooldowns? Then you lose TE again and those defensive cooldowns are gone.