Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[Welsper59]

If there is one thing i have leares through all of these SAM DPS/ Tank threads it's this: The vocal majority would rather bastardize the concept of a real world warrior culture that for generations held up fundamental ideals of honor, sacrifice, and duty to others before and at the cost of their own lives (Bushido being not unlike a Knights Chivalry), for the sake of less role responsibility in a fantasy based mmo ...

The saddest part? In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, they want to cut out a Samurais role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell. The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

Well if you really want to go into the history aspect, many of them were VERY corrupt, particularly the ronin, towards civilians. Just like today, it wasn't exactly uncommon for civilians to hate the "police" for their treachery. Being power hungry was probably a much greater occurrence then, than it is now. There were no doubt very chivalrous or honorable samurai, like we see in movies or read about in stories, but there were absolutely very corrupt ones. They were human, after all. The same can be said for European Knights. So... I mean, a sword spilling innocent and dishonorable blood isn't exactly a farfetched idea for the "honorable" samurai class. Nobunaga is a pretty common go-to, though his extremely evil portrayal in modern stuff isn't exactly historically justified. His deeds were great, horrific in some cases (like the slaughtering of women and children), but great.

Hell, my mention of the ronin and common manipulation of history in fiction is actually enough of a reason to argue for a DPS label lol. Unless this game is trying to be factitious in recreating point for point historical themes, they don't exactly have to follow IRL history. Truth be told, the game would be boring as **** if I had to sit through history class again.

[Shippuu]

Hell, my mention of the ronin and common manipulation of history in fiction is actually enough of a reason to argue for a DPS label lol. Unless this game is trying to be factitious in recreating point for point historical themes, they don't exactly have to follow IRL history. Truth be told, the game would be boring as **** if I had to sit through history class again.

The thing is, this game isn't going to implement such unsavory representations of any archetype. We are the heroes. As you pointed out European Knights could be just as corrupt yet we play a very honorable and chivalrous version of them because that's the job fantasy. Warriors share similarities with vikings and barbarians yet our job fantasy of them took a shift in 3.0 to them being strongest when in defense of others. Dark Knights who wield darkness were made defenders of the downtrodden, fighting against corrupt officials. The rogue's guild has a very strong moral code and are basically a secret police keeping more unsavory pirates in check. Of all the jobs only black mage is of any kind of dubious-ness and even then you're fighting against more evil people while proving that black mages don't have to be destructive war mongers.

If they go the ronin route it would be more seven samurai than anything in terms of job fantasy than any kind of murderous assassin. And even then, the ronin archetype is not how samurai has ever been portrayed in a Final Fantasy game. Any time it's been there it's been specifically NOT called samurai. So if they do add that archetype they better damn well not call it samurai so we can get a proper tank samurai later

[Welsper59]

The thing is, this game isn't going to implement such unsavory representations of any archetype. We are the heroes. As you pointed out European Knights could be just as corrupt yet we play a very honorable and chivalrous version of them because that's the job fantasy. Warriors share similarities with vikings and barbarians yet our job fantasy of them took a shift in 3.0 to them being strongest when in defense of others. Dark Knights who wield darkness were made defenders of the downtrodden, fighting against corrupt officials. The rogue's guild has a very strong moral code and are basically a secret police keeping more unsavory pirates in check. Of all the jobs only black mage is of any kind of dubious-ness and even then you're fighting against more evil people while proving that black mages don't have to be destructive war mongers.

If they go the ronin route it would be more seven samurai than anything in terms of job fantasy than any kind of murderous assassin. And even then, the ronin archetype is not how samurai has ever been portrayed in a Final Fantasy game. Any time it's been there it's been specifically NOT called samurai. So if they do add that archetype they better damn well not call it samurai so we can get a proper tank samurai later

Yeah, I mean backstory is no doubt going to be all "friendship conquers all" and "good > evil" sort of direction for everything lol. That's just the very child friendly atmosphere the majority of this game entails. That's where the manipulation bit comes into play. Focus on the good, rather than the bad. To the point though, it's really hard to argue conclusively that SAM is better suited for one role over the other.

Bushido itself is not exclusive to working the mindset of this games tank role over DPS. Soldiers/warriors and war don't exactly exist separately. The blade and form is designed to strike and kill your opponent in one move, meaning in game terms, massive damage, as is the teachings of the importance of your strike with RL Iaido, which follows samurai combat prowess and psychology among other forms. Through this skill, they fight to protect. So the philosophy to protect is "tank"-like but the actual combat is DPS. Given that we have DPS jobs that are of moral code to fight to protect, it isn't a one-way philosophy exclusive to tanks. Even the FF series has made connection to Iaido, although obviously fictional lol.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they were to add SAM, be it tank or DPS, that they called it Ronin (RON) lol. Our characters are more wanderer than serving a lord/master, sort of deal that's why. I really don't care which role the job takes, since I can see it being a tank, but I've seen and played it as DPS. Both works perfectly fine.

[MomomiMomi]

The blade and form is designed to strike and kill your opponent in one move, meaning in game terms, massive damage

Then we've got this guy over here...

[Welsper59]

Then we've got this guy over here...

Yeah, but I'm actually talking about a real philosophy of physical and mental training for combat to do the one strike, one kill. Like, it's literally the reason why samurai of old dress and wield their katana the way they do. War time had them wear the heavy armors as the infantry, outside of actual war though, most wore things like hakamas to conceal their footwork against their opponent. A stealth practice designed to hide your advancement until it's too late for your enemy to notice (makes me think the same train of thought with THF or NIN/ROG, except you're actually visible to them as a whole lol).

[Alacran]

Well if you really want to go into the history aspect, many of them were VERY corrupt, particularly the ronin, towards civilians. Just like today, it wasn't exactly uncommon for civilians to hate the "police" for their treachery. Being power hungry was probably a much greater occurrence then, than it is now. There were no doubt very chivalrous or honorable samurai, like we see in movies or read about in stories, but there were absolutely very corrupt ones. They were human, after all. The same can be said for European Knights. So... I mean, a sword spilling innocent and dishonorable blood isn't exactly a farfetched idea for the "honorable" samurai class. Nobunaga is a pretty common go-to, though his extremely evil portrayal in modern stuff isn't exactly historically justified. His deeds were great, horrific in some cases (like the slaughtering of women and children), but great.

Hell, my mention of the ronin and common manipulation of history in fiction is actually enough of a reason to argue for a DPS label lol. Unless this game is trying to be factitious in recreating point for point historical themes, they don't exactly have to follow IRL history. Truth be told, the game would be boring as **** if I had to sit through history class again.

Power corrupts, this is true for all people of all time periods of all ethnic back grounds. I was addressing the concept of both Bushido and Chivalry and the fantasy of adhering to those values to truly earn the name of Knight and Samurai. In this game we are Warriors of Light we are heroes, no class, no job in this game is depicted as corrupt because we as the players are depicted as paragons of those tenets.

Once again I say "In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, You want to cut out a Samurai's role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell", remember this is Final Fantasy by choosing to "unlock" those jobs we live out the fantasy of being those paragons of those virtues.

[Welsper59]

Funny you mention such things as killing in one blow translating to massive damage, because the single hardest hitting melee attack in the game comes from a Tank. The very same tank that is uncontested in its role that many feel Samurai would be the perfect fit to compete with.

That's not a consistent tank trait though is it? Tanks always having a skill that is the strongest damage move, that is. Once again, I'm not saying they can't be tanks, I'm just arguing that one side does not overrule the other. By your view, you're literally implying that the SAM job from FFXI is not "Samurai", just because it is a DD/DPS, regardless of story tied to it, and not a tank. It can, and does, work both ways. Just as much as they can fit the tank role, so too can they fit the DPS. Blinding yourself to such thoughts is contrary to the very idea of Samurai lol.

Power corrupts, this is true for all people of all time periods of all ethnic back grounds. I was addressing the concept of both Bushido and Chivalry and the fantasy of adhering to those values to truly earn the name of Knight and Samurai. In this game we are Warriors of Light we are heroes, no class, no job in this game is depicted as corrupt because we as the players are depicted as paragons of those tenets.

Once again I say "In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, You want to cut out a Samurai's role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell", remember this is Final Fantasy by choosing to "unlock" those jobs we live out the fantasy of being those paragons of those virtues.

That's living out your specific version of the job image. Are you implying that Samurai in FFXI is not "Samurai" because it's a DPS, and thus does not fit your idea of what Samurai is? If people want it to be a DPS, it can and does fit the bill just as much as it does for them to be tank. The reality of the image of the job does not gravitate exclusively to one role and not the other. Why you folks are using the paragon ideal as some form of defense to a job being a tank or not is beyond me, given the fact that, as you put it, no class or job strays from that ideal... so that does include both DPS and healers too. It's a point that does literally nothing to bolster the idea for SAM to be a tank. Even the initiative to protect is a rather weak one. Nearly all of the classes/jobs in this game give the player the story to protect something or to want to fight for something.

[MomomiMomi]

That's living out your specific version of the job image. Are you implying that Samurai in FFXI is not "Samurai" because it's a DPS, and thus does not fit your idea of what Samurai is? If people want it to be a DPS, it can and does fit the bill just as much as it does for them to be tank. The reality of the image of the job does not gravitate exclusively to one role and not the other. Why you folks are using the paragon ideal as some form of defense to a job being a tank or not is beyond me, given the fact that, as you put it, no class or job strays from that ideal... so that does include both DPS and healers too. It's a point that does literally nothing to bolster the idea for SAM to be a tank. Even the initiative to protect is a rather weak one. Nearly all of the classes/jobs in this game give the player the story to protect something or to want to fight for something.

He said nothing about dps or tank. He said that Samurai will uphold Bushido, arguing against you saying ronin is a good example of SAM not being a tank and instead fighting dishonorably. Because if we get Samurai, it most likely isn't going to be dishonorable. That goes against the core of fantasy Samurai.

[Welsper59]

He said nothing about dps or tank. He said that Samurai will uphold Bushido, arguing against you saying ronin is a good example of SAM not being a tank and instead fighting dishonorably. Because if we get Samurai, it most likely isn't going to be dishonorable. That goes against the core of fantasy Samurai.

Why are ronin by default dishonorable? I didn't even say that. I said a lot of them were, just as Samurai ranks were, but by a default, ronins were not. Your argument, and apparently the person I quoted, indirectly implies that DPS are dishonorable. The reason I say that is because of the fact you single out the tank role as the exclusive role for it to possibly exist in the game. If I'm wrong on that, and that you're not saying DPS are dishonorable (in other words, they are capable of being honorable), then how is this at all a point to argue for the tank role? You would literally be picking out a quality all roles share. Even as far as history goes, I've pointed out reasons why they can fit DPS equally as well as tank... since it's for the same reasons.

Edit: For further clarification, my mention of the ronin and the general corruption of the Samurai ranks in history were to point out to the guy that Samurai were not some saintly order infallible to the misdeeds of normal human beings, as was being implied. Here's what he said:

If there is one thing i have leares through all of these SAM DPS/ Tank threads it's this: The vocal majority would rather bastardize the concept of a real world warrior culture that for generations held up fundamental ideals of honor, sacrifice, and duty to others before and at the cost of their own lives (Bushido being not unlike a Knights Chivalry), for the sake of less role responsibility in a fantasy based mmo ...

The saddest part? In wanting to play the fantasy of a Samurai, they want to cut out a Samurais role in not only real world history but established fantasy aswell. The reason we don't have a sword DPS is simple, the sword iconography/ symbology denotes a hero. By all means prove me wrong, pictures of swords through the back are welcome, particularly Samurai attacking the enemy From behind.

Bolded the important part of why I brought up the reality about the samurai. They were not all as honorable as Hollywood likes to make it seem, as he even admitted.

[MomomiMomi]

Why are ronin by default dishonorable? I didn't even say that. I said a lot of them were, just as Samurai ranks were, but by a default, ronins were not. Your argument, and apparently the person I quoted, indirectly implies that DPS are dishonorable. The reason I say that is because of the fact you single out the tank role as the exclusive role for it to possibly exist in the game. If I'm wrong on that, and that you're not saying DPS are dishonorable (in other words, they are capable of being honorable), then how is this at all a point to argue for the tank role? You would literally be picking out a quality all roles share. Even as far as history goes, I've pointed out reasons why they can fit DPS equally as well as tank... since it's for the same reasons.

You tell me, you're the one who brought them up:

Well if you really want to go into the history aspect, many of them were VERY corrupt, particularly the ronin, towards civilians. Just like today, it wasn't exactly uncommon for civilians to hate the "police" for their treachery.

Which is pretty pointless to bring up because the fantasy samurai is based on the idealized Samurai.