Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

[Duelle]

Savage raiding and its extreme difficulty has scared away (quite literally) most of my friends who used to play the game. It should have been reserved for the final tier of raiding to give extreme hardcore raiders something to do in the down time. I have always said that they should do raid progression more like this:

* Patch X.0: Hard mode raid is released, tuned at midcore raiding.
* Patch X.1: Hard mode raid is nerfed to normal mode so casual player base can experience the raid in story mode.
* Patch X.1: Hard mode raid is buffed to Extreme for the players who want to amp things up and get cool titles.
* Repeat cycle of new raid at X.2 released at hard mode.

Replace "Savage" with "Extreme" for the harder raids for players. Savage has become tainted by bad memories and hard feelings in the 3.X series and should be avoided. Ask your marketing people if you don't believe me, once a word is tainted, it should be avoided.

I'm more partial to natural progression in difficulty. Release raid bosses as Normal Mode, with certain aspects per fight that turn those encounters into Hard Mode. So your average group of new people will be able to clear content in Normal, and as they get geared and learn the encounter can do the Hard Mode triggers.

To give an example, let's take A1. Normal mode would be like our current story mode of the fight, but with more outgoing damage and an additional big missile. During the fight, Quickthinx Allthoughts hovers around the battlefield in his Dr. Robotnik-style mount and taunts you from high up. If your raid DPS is low he'll eventually leave the battlefield, confident that you'll lose to Oppressor. If you damage Oppressor and .5 to, say, 70% HP within the first 3 minutes of the fight, he'll dock his mount to Oppressor (the way Dr. Robotnik's ship thing would dock to whatever machine he was using to try to kill Sonic the Hedgehog) and trigger hard mode, healing both Oppressor and .5 to full HP and adding more mechanics and outgoing damage to the fight. This way a noobie group can still clear the content while a hardcore group will eventually get good enough and geared enough to trigger hard mode and reap the benefits of doing so (extra loot, etc).

They could always do something like this for the relics again...

And you'd thus make those weapons the only weapons worth a damn and made every other weapon in the game worthless.

[Tanathya]

And you'd thus make those weapons the only weapons worth a damn and made every other weapon in the game worthless.

They don't have to be the only weapons, or gear with extra statuses. That's just an extremely good example of what gear could have.

[Zojha]

And you'd thus make those weapons the only weapons worth a damn and made every other weapon in the game worthless.

I dunno - to be honest, the sphairai would be pretty meh for a monk these days. Only 60 attack power and otherwise pointless evasion (You could just as well put parry on it) and sustain. The curtana wouldn't see use either - PLDs are not supposed to heal anyhow and bonus HP is pointless after Tankbuster + AA survival (as we've seen during the STR meta). Only redeeming factor is the accuracy.

Not gonna lie - I'd feel cheated if I got a weapon like that after working for a crit/det relic :P

[Underdog2204]

I dunno - to be honest, the sphairai would be pretty meh for a monk these days. Only 60 attack power and otherwise pointless evasion (You could just as well put parry on it) and sustain. The curtana wouldn't see use either - PLDs are not supposed to heal anyhow and bonus HP is pointless after Tankbuster + AA survival (as we've seen during the STR meta). Only redeeming factor is the accuracy.

Not gonna lie - I'd feel cheated if I got a weapon like that after working for a crit/det relic :P

Not if crit and det weren't basically must haves on all dps classes.

Gearing a dps? Need more Crit and Det... Every dps class follows this no matter their place in the group or what they offer, it's always just "moar crit and/or det"... All the healers and tanks suffer from their version of it too... It's boring and stale.

We've had this rather bland system for 3 years now and it's time some changes were made.

[Zojha]

Not if crit and det weren't basically must haves on all dps classes.

Damage is going to be and stay a must-have on all DPS classes and whatever offers the most DPS "will" be preferred over all else. It doesn't really matter whether that's crit/det, skill speed, mastery or whatever stats you can think of (On that note, BLMs stack spell speed over Det/Crit). Other stats will only ever be taken to the absolute minimum, simply because the win condition of fights is based on damage (Which is why every job needs to be able to do "some" damage - they could not meet that win condition in the MSQ and the open world otherwise). The entire role of DPS pretty much builds and depends on this.

And tanks are no better - all kinds of mitigation stats are entirely pointless, because you only need to prevent one-hit KOs, everything else can be mopped up far more efficiently by healing because healing is just that powerful. You cannot make mitigation stats "appealing" without nerfing the living hell out of healers, you can only set the bar of minimum mitigation higher and higher. And the only stats suited for that are reliable mitigation stats, not RNG based ones, because the latter might randomly fail without the players at fault - it would be the same as making tank buster moves have a chance to crit, sudden death by RNG. And since healers make mitigation pointless, what other useful stuff is there? Oh right, DPS.

I mean, that doesn't stop people from taking convenient but sub-par options. If the tome stuff is loaded with parry, accuracy and +mana on tanks, you'll still have people stacking that stuff beyond all needs. But yeah... First you need to understand why the system is bland in the first place, then you can go and try to change it. It's not as easy as simply introducing a bunch of new stats.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

True but you are being very limited in your scope, more damage doesn't mean "everyone needs the same stats/gear". It could mean pieces of gear that adds procs to certain skills or if a caster stands still for a certain amount of time x activates for +potency, BRD could get Skill speed increases whilst singing etc.

Who says tanks need only mitigation? They could also offer party support and their own potency buffs etc. The don't have to have more mitigation.

Your problem is you have a very narrow view of how things can work if we get change, it's not a limited as you seem to think it is. Ofc they may well be preferred setups but how is that different than "have ilvl [insert ivil here]" we have now? The difference is one is more insteresting and improves longevity and keeps the community interested in playing during patches, one is boring and sees the population dwindle enormously until the next patch is release (repeat ad infinitum).

You'll be in the same position as us in 2 more years of banging the same old drum, is that when change needs to happen? When you yourself get bored and all of us have left because you decided that it wasn't a good idea when it didn't suit you? Or do you think the dev's making fuffy dresses and hats, occasionally content that involves "kill things repeatedly" and FATE grinding is worth the subscription?

Just look at what happened when tanks could invest in STR the community was debating about the pros/cons, people took up tanking because it became more interesting than "be a wall" and just tanks changing that one stat caused that. Where is the talk about pros/cons on things now? Where are people debating what best to slot on characters? Where are people asking where to get specific gear to match their build? Oh wait they don't -_-

Colour me strange but I expect big changes in MMO expansions not exactly the same as before. Otherwise what is the point? My limit is 4.0 if i find it exactly the same 2 expansions into the game I full well expect it to never happen and there is no point in paying the subscription.

[Zojha]

Your problem is you have a very narrow view of how things can work if we get change, it's not a limited as you seem to think it is.

Except on the meta-level, it is. See your party support for tanks? That'll be weighted against the other stats and tanks will take whatever has the biggest overall value (Likely, whichever increases overall party DPS more). A procc will only be taken if it's a mathematical DPS increase over flat stats on average, because DPS is still what matters in the current combat setup. Same applies to the song-thing and standing still - it won't be taken unless the average DPS is higher. And if the situation changes to make other stats more favorable, it remains as simple, you simply change to the other equally "bland" setup. Movement heavy fight? You switch from "stand still for more damage" procs to "Allow casting while moving" procs or somesuch. I don't see much value in different DPS priorizing different stats either - we already have that, Monks priorize STR while Bards priorize DEX. Is that, uh...not bland? I think it is.

Personally, I find stats as such boring, no matter how complex or simple they are. I'm getting the same kind of thrill out of them as I used to get from math homework in school. "Task 2: Current situation is X, maximize the number Y under the constraint of Z." Wheee... much exciting. It's all stats boil down to, because that's all they are - numbers in the underlying math framework of combat. But there are also people enthusiastic about statistics seminaries so /huh. Different strokes and all that.

I don't see much harm in adding more, mind you, but it's not gonna make the situation any less "bland", unless the entire combat system changes. It just makes the math homework more difficult and gearing more annoying because you'll have tons of "trap" stats.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

So basically what you are saying is "Who want's things to make you think more? Why don't we just have nothing and never think at all."

Great... I'd rather ask for seasoning on the rather dull meal rather than just sit there and keep eating eat without it because after all the meal itself is bland.

[Istaru]

And you'd thus make those weapons the only weapons worth a damn and made every other weapon in the game worthless.

I agree that it could do that.

Balance that against starting next week, casual content will be giving 3 weapons at i235-i240 and in some of those cases, as was stated in another post here, the relic becomes hardly worth doing, because of it's high cost of entry.

1) PotD gives an i 235 that can be completed in about 8, maybe 10 hours or so.
2) Void Ark + Wiping City will now give the i240 upgrade, if you count in the time for (10) A8 clears, that takes about 4, maybe 5 hours total.
3) The relic weapon, can requires 24,000 Eso, The Aetherochemical Research Facility awards 150 Eso. 24,000/150 =160 clears. At 20 minutes per clear, that is roughly 53 hours, we'll call it 50-60 with the other items added in. I am not even going to consider the time requirement for starting one from 0. That would be too ridiculous to even consider.

That is balanced???

As was said in an earlier post, and I also agree with:

Someone in one of my linkshells pointed out how the effort required compared to say, farming PotD or even running Nidhogg EX for a near equivalent weapon just doesn't compare properly.

I have an i240 relic and I am working on #2 out of boredom, but I agree with what was stated here. Other than wanting it for whatever reason, there really isn't much reason to chase the relic. Especially if you are not a raider, the small increase in DPS does not justify the cost in time.

Example, MCH 240 lore vs. Relic weapon:

Lore: 72 WD, 141 Dex, 120 Crit, 104 Det (w/Materia)
Relic: 72 WD, 141 Dex, 240 Substat (Should be Crit/Det, but people can spec as they like)

Hmmm, an additional 50+ hours or so of mind numbing boredom or more, for an entire whopping 16 Det??? If we use the BRD stat weight values (I know MCH is different), you get 1162.7 for the i240 lore vs. 1165.4 for the i240 relic. An increase of 0.2%???

I will state that again, 900% increase in the work (only for the i230 to the i240 step) for what is a 0.2% increase in damage. An increase that most people will never even see or recognize.

Which lines up with what many people say about the time/reward ratios not being well aligned. I am not saying that the weapon should be 900% better, only that an increase of 0.2% is out of alignment.

If the relic is going to be the most time consuming item to obtain outside of savage raiding, then it should also be the item with the biggest reward. Also,that reward should be in alignment with the time requirement.

Where is this from? 1.0?

: O

Yes, they were the 1.0 relics.

[Duelle]

I agree that it could do that.

Balance that against starting next week, casual content will be giving 3 weapons at i235-i240 and in some of those cases, as was stated in another post here, the relic becomes hardly worth doing, because of it's high cost of entry.

1) PotD gives an i 235 that can be completed in about 8, maybe 10 hours or so.
2) Void Ark + Wiping City will now give the i240 upgrade, if you count in the time for (10) A8 clears, that takes about 4, maybe 5 hours total.
3) The relic weapon, can requires 24,000 Eso, The Aetherochemical Research Facility awards 150 Eso. 24,000/150 =160 clears. At 20 minutes per clear, that is roughly 53 hours, we'll call it 50-60 with the other items added in. I am not even going to consider the time requirement for starting one from 0. That would be too ridiculous to even consider.

That is balanced???

You're bringing up something completely different. My issue is with the people asking for "unique" stats without understanding what that does to progression.

As far as acquisition, yes the system is lopsided, though that's largely because of what the devs did to relic acquisition after the initial quest. They had a really good idea in making relic require killing Hard Mode primals, since it was setting the precedent of doing challenging content to progress your relic. Then they decided to implement a million grinds instead of continuing to use stuff like EX primals for relic progression.

The devs also know that comparable/better rewards are what get people to do content, which is why Padjali weapons are i235 instead of 230. By the time PotD was implemented, everyone more than likely had their 230 weapon, so on that end the decision makes sense. Personally, I still haven't set foot in there, and don't plan to in the near future; I have my 230 weapon and that place is not content I specifically asked for, so I have no interest in it.

I have an i240 relic and I am working on #2 out of boredom, but I agree with what was stated here. Other than wanting it for whatever reason, there really isn't much reason to chase the relic. Especially if you are not a raider, the small increase in DPS does not justify the cost in time.

Again, I'd rather relics require difficult content instead of grinds. You'd see more people going for them without being bored to tears. I still remember back when ARR launched a group of people in my FC decided to start running HM primals nightly to try to progress our relics.