Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

[Underdog2204]

Dunno if that shrug was meant to imply "well you'd get what you want but you'd come to the forums complaining about poor deepz".... I think I've shown on numerous occasions on this forum (specifically about df) that I am not such a person so your assumption is flat out wrong. But yes people asking for nerfs because of their own inadquacy should be ignored though. You saying people wearing ilvl 60 gear trying to beat Garuda extreme but its "too hard" would have a valid point? They certainly would not.

Yeah people care so little they are constantly looking for ways to impove their gear... I see many people still in their questing gear at lvl 60 because they just don't care about it. I also see tanks stacking piety all the time, it's so common that I have them 90% of the time in DF /sarcasm.

You have a point on that first one though, still doesn't make the items themselves more interesting than "+10 ilvl" all the time.

[Alexander_Dragonfang]

The best stage of the Relics was the 2.0 relics with HM primals. After that has been a decline from challenging fun content to mindless boring grind.

[Hyrist]

Raiding difficulties should be on a slider, not a set hard/difficult.

Raiding rewards are irrelevant, even as they are now. They don't effect participation so much as they provide an excuse to keep it the same via circular reasoning. Raiding must be hard to justify the gear they get. The gear has to be better than everyone else to justify the difficulty.

It's not just a difficulty, the idea needs to be re-thought from the ground up. Thankfully, due to SE pretty much segmenting its entire system, this sort of massive revision is possible - albiet it would not be seen for quite some time (About 2 years is what I'd guess to take a brand new development idea, provided they're not stopping production on existing projects. Not this coming expansion but the next.)

As far as where relics go for their upgrades. Why can it not be both? Something that upsets me about this game is how segmented a lot of its reward systems have become. It's time released rather than effort released - which causes overall burn out. Weekly lockouts, items for upgrades that can only come from specific content with no alternatives for multiple months. The way the reward system in this game is implemented is very divisive of the player base itself - as if raid culture alone did not cause enough of a rift.

[Duelle]

As far as where relics go for their upgrades. Why can it not be both? Something that upsets me about this game is how segmented a lot of its reward systems have become. It's time released rather than effort released - which causes overall burn out. Weekly lockouts, items for upgrades that can only come from specific content with no alternatives for multiple months. The way the reward system in this game is implemented is very divisive of the player base itself - as if raid culture alone did not cause enough of a rift.

Well, the post-relic grind (getting the +1/Zenith) was a nice break from killing HM primals to get the relic in the first place. I half expected them to make EX primals part of the upgrading process; then Atmas and animus books were introduced.

Hard content with reasonable grinds in-between would make sense. Making the whole of relic progression rely on grinds was simply a bad call. And the reason why I ignore relic-related content.

[Archaell]

The majority of players I know that raid have an alt to run the raid twice. So I believe that the real number of people that cleared Midas savage is far less than those numbers.

Atm I am pondering if it is really worth it to do this. On one hand I already have a lvl 60 alt stashed on Balmung that would be easily geared up, on the other one I am not sure I want to spend additional time and money on something I consider a design flaw - there are way too many timegates and lockouts

[vp_cmc]

Atm I am pondering if it is really worth it to do this.

Alt is useful when you've cleared it this week on your main, and somebody ask you to help them with savage. If you use alt (sufficiently geared), you can help them without affecting their loot.

[zosia]

I suppose that explains why Black Desert is booming with activity. After all, the game is practically designed with the slow reward ideal in mind. In fact, virtually all Eastern MMOs follow a similar model, yet none last in the West. People aren't leaving because the devs added tokens to Pigeon farming. They left for a variety reasons; drought in content, Alexander being tuned far too high, lack of a midcore or the saturation of MMOs in general. You're also neglecting the fact this survey came at a time when the current cycle is nearing its end and two major games were released; one of which includes a $15 sub.

Doing a complete 180 on mount drops or Anima grinds aren't going to bring people back nor would it have influenced their decision to begin with. Frankly, even the most vocal complaints on this forum do not align with your theory; that being gear not lasting long enough.

Where did I ask for a 180? You are being hyperbolic and assuming my position. Just because I believe in the notion of rarity and compelling carrots does not mean I think every last thing in FFXIV needs to be a grind like some korean F2P grindy crapfest.

There is an extreme imbalance in this game when we have no long term carrots to work on that will stay rare. The only real long term goal this game has is housing and that is not even a readily available long term goal on most servers (since there are few severs with lots left).

But, go on, keep defending the status quo. A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about /s

You do realize, the drop rates on Primal mounds were increased expressly because enough people complained, yes? What also kills motivation is subjecting oneself to 200+ Ravana EX runs in DF because RNG decided to hate you. That is neither fun nor challenging. And while I'd do it because I like collecting stuff. If the game were designed around endless RNG, I can't say my interest would last.

And wait two years doing so. Most people who care about unique mounts or rewards want them now. The equivalent is my waiting to pick up FFXV because it'll be cheaper six months later. If I want the game badly enough, I'll buy it early. Most people do that.

If your only motivation to sub is rolling the dice on a mount drop... you aren't longed to stay subbed.

My little cousin complains that he can't have donuts for dinner, whats your point? Just because players want something does not mean it's good for the game. Did we not learn anything from gordias savage? You can see how pointless the ponies are now every time you see a whistle drop to the ground. The drop rates were waaaaaay too high.

The only nerf to the pony grind should have been outgearing the content. When players can duo or solo primals, do their respective mounts really need an increased drop rate? I mean, lets be real, if they had stayed around 5%, anyone who wants one today could still easily get them. Buffing them to 15-20%, or w/e the number is, was completely uncalled for.

The point that you are missing is that things are made WAAAAAAAAAAY to easy. SE has never heard of the concept of a goldilocks zone. The coffin lid is another great example. It went from a 1% drop rate to a 100% drop rate. There was absolutely no reason for that. It really should have just been around 30%, similar to other crystal tower furniture.

Again, pretend that this game is not careening down the pipes, you are only hurting your own game by doing so.

[Zojha]

A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...rs-by-quarter/
http://cdn2-www.craveonline.com/asse...1066777558.png

I dunno. Should we already start working on WoW's coffin then? They managed to pull similar percentages on a much higher total sub level. And not just once, it's pretty much every expansion now. They no longer publish numbers, unfortunately - guesses are it's down to about 4-3,5 million by now. Either way, it's got a pretty consistent downward trend as well that'll likely be shortly interrupted with legion again before it returns to its course. Unless Legion becomes another surprise success, then they might retain subs for a while longer - I heavily doubt they'll be able to rebound from that trend again.

Question would be how it looks with other MMORPG and whether this is a genre-wide trend. Any MMOs currently booming and gaining players en masse? Maybe a WoW-refugee camp? Did people all wander to MOBAs? Whooo knows.

[zosia]

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...rs-by-quarter/
http://cdn2-www.craveonline.com/asse...1066777558.png

I dunno. Should we already start working on WoW's coffin then? They managed to pull similar percentages on a much higher total sub level. And not just once, it's pretty much every expansion now. They no longer publish numbers, unfortunately - guesses are it's down to about 4-3,5 million by now. Either way, it's got a pretty consistent downward trend as well that'll likely be shortly interrupted with legion again before it returns to its course. Unless Legion becomes another surprise success, then they might retain subs for a while longer - I heavily doubt they'll be able to rebound from that trend again.

Question would be how it looks with other MMORPG and whether this is a genre-wide trend. Any MMOs currently booming and gaining players en masse? Maybe a WoW-refugee camp? Did people all wander to MOBAs? Whooo knows.

I think a lot of people feel legion is make or break for wow. I am not sure what your point is here? Since wow is doing badly we should not worry about this game? WoW was in decent shape at the end of MoP and could come back to a good state of things with legion? Who knows.

We can say this with certainty, this game is bleeding more subs at a higher rate % wise than wow. A roughly 25% sub loss in seven months is a much faster pace than anything wow is experiencing. If you think you can hide this games misgivings behind a declining MMO market, you are sorely mistaken. There are still good titles in this genre despite hard times.

If legion hits it out of the park, this game could easily lose another 150k subs. This game can survive on it's current amount of subs, but another 150k hit could easily eject this game from the sub model right into the garbage free to play market where it belongs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Where did I ask for a 180? You are being hyperbolic and assuming my position. Just because I believe in the notion of rarity and compelling carrots does not mean I think every last thing in FFXIV needs to be a grind like some korean F2P grindy crapfest.
There is an extreme imbalance in this game when we have no long term carrots to work on that will stay rare. The only real long term goal this game has is housing and that is not even a readily available long term goal on most servers (since there are few severs with lots left).

But, go on, keep defending the status quo. A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about /s

You implied necessitating certain rewards stay at absurdly low drop rates indefinitely. As they do not, this would be a "complete 180". So no, I'm not being hyperbolic nor did I imply you meant every piece of content. Granted, Korean MMOs also do not gate everything behind RNG, just a substantial amount. I, personally, do not find RNG appealing unless I can somehow influence it-- like say, crafting. Why? Because it requires no skill or real effort on my part. I'm ilvl 230+ now, Ravana and Bismarck will melt provided I get a decent group in DF or just go the premade route.

So, in essence, waiting still technically benefits as I will clear Primals faster than were I at their relevant ilvl.

Who said I was defending the status quo? This is a strawman. We simply disagree on what is causing the sub decline. I specifically cited WoW's latest expansion, No May Sky, 3.3 nearing its end and the lack of enough content to sate people who aren't interested in Savage. Hardly what I would call "defending" the game. My point is people bored with the game aren't going to be tempted by pretty mounts when other MMOs offer the same.

My little cousin complains that he can't have donuts for dinner, whats your point? Just because players want something does not mean it's good for the game. Did we not learn anything from gordias savage? You can see how pointless the ponies are now every time you see a whistle drop to the ground. The drop rates were waaaaaay too high.

The only nerf to the pony grind should have been outgearing the content. When players can duo or solo primals, do their respective mounts really need an increased drop rate? I mean, lets be real, if they had stayed around 5%, anyone who wants one today could still easily get them. Buffing them to 15-20%, or w/e the number is, was completely uncalled for.

The point that you are missing is that things are made WAAAAAAAAAAY to easy. SE has never heard of the concept of a goldilocks zone. The coffin lid is another great example. It went from a 1% drop rate to a 100% drop rate. There was absolutely no reason for that. It really should have just been around 30%, similar to other crystal tower furniture.

Again, pretend that this game is not careening down the pipes, you are only hurting your own game by doing so.

Again. You are placing far too great a significance on mount or minion drops. The JP forum even complained they're bored of those, and want to see new collectibles added. Dangling the proverbial carrot is fine, but people who unsub aren't doing so for the reasons you presume. At least not in large amounts. FFXIV has simply stagnated for some while others are playing different games. Frankly speaking, if you aren't into roleplay or Savage (or can't beat it), the game can feeling lacking. That is going to cause sub losses.

In fact, let's look at the Yokai statistics. Despite a estimated 23% drop rate on medals over 300,000 characters has none. Now some may not like Yokai in and of itself, but if you aim to collect minions and mounts, this will be your only opportunity because the event won't return. That limitation still has not motivated 64% of active characters to even bother with one, let alone all thirteen.

Fate grinding is no different than Ravana EX a hundred plus times. They both become incredibly monotonous and require no skill whatsoever.

I understand your point just fine. I simply disagree with it. People aren't going to continue subbing for ponies or pigeons if they're bored of the game. Generally, when you lose interest in a game or hobby, the collectibles don't matter to you anymore. If I were bored of FFXIV, a couple lucky Pigeon drops would not suddenly revitalize my enjoyment of the game.

No one is pretending anything. You just seem incapable of appreciating someone may not share your opinion on the perceived problems. There is a difference.

That being said, the last MMO had me running the equivalent of DREX prolly close to 1000 times before I got the weapon drop. Why did I do it? Because it was BiS and it stayed BiS for the good part of a year and a half. Once I got it, why did I keep running that dungeon for another 1000 times? because I could sell that same drop now that I have one for the equivalent of 100 mil gil.

The thing with Delayed rewards is that it only works with delayed obsolescence with no nerf tampering by the devs.

While you or I may be willing to grind an obscene amount, most people won't. This was already proven even in games with those massive time sinks. Korean MMOs consistently fail in the West because Western gamers typically are not interested in overly monotonous activity. I, again, point to Yokai, and Fate grinding in general. This also cripples new player growth because said players look at the Everest task ahead of them and give up before they even begin. FFXIV has its share of issues; chief among them being the devs do dish out far too much irrelevant gear and lacking any sort of midcore. But mount and minion drops aren't among them. At least not in my opinion.