Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

[Nyerieri]

Some text was posted here.

I am not narrow minded, thank you. I believe majority that want red mage are. They offer no solutions besides "i want to see it be this". I point out facts of how it will not fit very nicely into this game due to most of what red mage did in the past is currently already being done. You have yet to produce a working template of how the job would work fitting into the duty finder mold. The hybrid of a white mage/black mage that a lot have said is going to end up being some weird astrologian again. People just do not want to hear the truth. They want their beloved job even if it will be the same as another. This thread HERE was the best brainstorm of how red mage could work in this game. If they implemented it this way, I would have no issues whatsoever. Most people here fail to understand the definition of a "want" and a "need" for this game -

Want - have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for; a desire for something.

Need - require (something) because it is essential or very important.; circumstances in which something is necessary, or that require some course of action; necessity.



The whole point of me bringing up clemency was the fact you brought it up saying paladin was a job that used clemency. You never pointed out that the spell is rarely used. PS - I saw no Paladins use clemency today.

You missed the whole point of this conversation - WHAT void are we filling by creating red mage? There is nothing red mage would SOLVE in the game. It's just an outlandish cry by the play base to finish the "holy trinity". The other poster brought up how we also need red mage because it's the only job not in the game from FF1. Why aren't we discussing why isn't Thief in this game yet? I am a realist, and am stating the obvious it isn't going to solve some problem that we have in FFXIV today. I rather them spend the time they would use making red mage into making better content.

Duty finder again, is going nowhere. Make a template like morningstar did and we can discuss it.

[Ametrine]

Theif is in the game. It's just called Rogue here. It has the "mug" skill and upgrades to Ninja, exactly as it did in FF1. No one is mentioning it becuase we aren't missing it!

That is why I specifically said that each job from FF1 is in FFXIV in some iteration except Red Mage. Technically, Fighter/Knight is the most removed but still correlates to Gladiator/Paladin in role and gear.

I have no problem with you playing devil's advocate here, but I don't recall reading from anyone not agreeing that Red Mage will need some to many alterations to fit any role in FFXIV, just ways that familiar traits and skills outside of the general "can equip low/mid level white and black magic" and how it could translate next to the current 3 tanks.

Also, I think you are underestimating the impact old school Final Fantasy iconography has to the series' fans. Red Mage in FFXIV has been requested for years. We were asking for it for 2.0 and 3.0. It's inevitable at this point.

[Duelle]

They offer no solutions besides "i want to see it be this".

Which is still a decent foundation for making a request. Several of us have typed up suggestions in the past, so I'm not sure why you act like no one's ever done a write-up on RDM.

I point out facts of how it will not fit very nicely into this game due to most of what red mage did in the past is currently already being done.

Your context for this claim is way off. I don't think many want RDM to be anything like it was in FFXI (the fact we've had threads like this is very telling). We also aren't expecting it to be a complete carbon copy of RDM from console FFs (middle-road hybrid with no strengths and mediocre performance outside of gimmicks like Double Cast).

Personally, I feel the implementation can be a little different in order to fit in an MMO while also keeping the idea of what a RDM is intact. RDM can be boiled down to "guy that casts magic and wields a sword". The mechanics that make it possible can really be anything, so long as it stays true to the idea of being a guy that casts magic and wields a sword. I happen to favor a melee-focused job with spells implemented via procs along with limited utility because I've seen it work in the past.

They want their beloved job even if it will be the same as another.

This is not a console FF that has nothing but niche design. Overlap between jobs and designs are actually understandable, so long as the mechanics and gameplay vary from class to class to help one stand out from the other. You may see the "same" results from a DRG vs a MNK, but the gameplay between the two is very different between what you have to look out for in addition to their respective lv60 mechanics. The same goes for SCH/WHM/AST, as is also the case with PLD/WAR/DRK.

Obsession with niches and uniqueness has already created enough problems; lest we forget, we launched the expansion with PLD in the latrine because WAR could get around limitation mechanics the other two tanks had to deal more damage than them while also having equal survivability, followed by the devs saying the high DPS was WAR's niche instead of admitting that it was leading to bad balance between the tanks. That's largely why uniqueness should be kept in check by asking whether it allows the design to work and generate the desired results.

The whole point of me bringing up clemency was the fact you brought it up saying paladin was a job that used clemency. You never pointed out that the spell is rarely used. PS - I saw no Paladins use clemency today.

That's largely because those PLDs are busy getting hit in the face. The window of opportunity is very small because Clemency was given to a tank job. If Clemency had been given to, say, DRG, with mechanics built around limiting the use of Clemency (MP limitation, combo cancelling, maybe consuming Greater F&C/WT procs), you'd see DRGs that ignore the ability to focus on DPS and those that are willing to use their utility in situations where the shit hits the fan (which is really where utility is supposed to shine). They'd also have more opportunities to use said utility because they're not getting hit in the face.

And as a PLD, my use of Clemency depends on whether things get ugly mid-fight or not. This in itself is not a bad thing.

WHAT void are we filling by creating red mage?

The large pimp-hat-wearing-rapier-wielding-DPS hole in the job roster. A sword & magic hybrid job. A sword-wielding DPS (specially since we lost DRK to the tank pool).

There is nothing red mage would SOLVE in the game.

This assumes there always has to be something to "solve". One of the big things about certain Final Fantasy titles is variety in classes along with their aesthetics. FF has this in spades while games like WoW have to make up crap in order to give their classes different facets. We currently are in need of more variety when it comes to jobs, and that's yet another part of why people ask for RDM (among other jobs).

[Ametrine]

Clemency is a PLD's person "Oh Crap!" heal. Honestly, if you never see it used, it's because the rest of the team is on top of things.

It's not like Lustrate, more like Benediction.

[LineageRazor]

No, it certainly doesn't have to be the case. But one uniqueness of RDM can be because it's the only job that does. I'm not assumng they will have those spells I want it to.

Actually, no, RDM is not unique in being the classic Final Fantasy job that can use the exact same spells as WHM and BLM, just at a lower level. Even as far back as the first Final Fantasy game, Paladins (or "Knights", as they were called then, and are still called in the Japanese versions of many of the other Final Fantasy games) used White Magic spells - the very same ones used by White Mages and White Wizards. Ninja used Black Magic spells in the first game, as well, as have Summoners and Dark Knights. RDM isn't even the only class to have used BOTH White Magic and Black Magic - pre-time-skip Rydia was a Summoner who could use both types, even if she went straight Black Magic after her age-up.

In this game, though, even if two abilities are completely identical across classes, they will be given new names. Cure, Benefic, Physick - all are functionally identical; they could have just given Cure to each job, but chose instead to tailor their basic curative to have a different flavor for each class. They will do the same for Red Mage; even if Red Mage has a nuke that's clearly fire-based, it will not be called Fire. If they have a curative, it will not be called Cure - and unless Red Mage is a healing job, their Cure will not be nearly as useful as one belonging to a dedicated healing job.

It's fine to WANT them to directly map BLM and WHM spells into RDM's roster, but don't get your hopes up. And contrary to the feelings of some in this thread, the job won't be "ruined" if they don't.

I really hope they'll have one of each type. It'd kinda suck to not have something new for each role.

While I don't remember where I read it, I seem to recall Yoshi P noting that trying to build three jobs for Heavensward was way too difficult, and they likely won't be doing so again for future expansions. This is particularly obvious with Machinist, which wound up being virtually a clone of Bard, and is missing a lot of the features that were teased (like multiple gun attachments for various situations). We'll likely get one new job, possibly two.

Theif is in the game. It's just called Rogue here. It has the "mug" skill and upgrades to Ninja, exactly as it did in FF1. No one is mentioning it becuase we aren't missing it!

Oh, don't get me started. XD I know I'm not alone in being disappointed that Thief did not get proper treatment in this game. Rogue isn't good enough, because no one PLAYS as Rogue, at least not any longer than it takes to unlock Ninja. Ninja and Thief should be side-by-side as JOBS in this game, not with one being an inferior base class to the other. No one's bringing it up, because it's not a debate appropriate to this thread, and really it's not a fight worth fighting. Yoshi P has pretty much straight-up stated that he doesn't see a place for Thief in this game (which is nonsense, and it wouldn't take much imagination to come up with a good identity for it). That doesn't mean that a lot of us aren't deeply bitter about it!

Red Mage is different, though. There's nothing in the game that you can "pass off" as a poor-man's Red Mage, and it IS one of the most iconic jobs in the series. I find it very unlikely that it won't make it into the game eventually, even if not with the next expansion.

[Duelle]

In this game, though, even if two abilities are completely identical across classes, they will be given new names. Cure, Benefic, Physick - all are functionally identical; they could have just given Cure to each job, but chose instead to tailor their basic curative to have a different flavor for each class. They will do the same for Red Mage; even if Red Mage has a nuke that's clearly fire-based, it will not be called Fire. If they have a curative, it will not be called Cure - and unless Red Mage is a healing job, their Cure will not be nearly as useful as one belonging to a dedicated healing job.

Pretty much agree with this.

It's fine to WANT them to directly map BLM and WHM spells into RDM's roster

While I don't think copying abilities will happen, I do think RDM could gain certain spells to fulfill the job's concept via cross-classing.

Non-sequitur:

Oh, don't get me started. XD I know I'm not alone in being disappointed that Thief did not get proper treatment in this game. Rogue isn't good enough, because no one PLAYS as Rogue, at least not any longer than it takes to unlock Ninja. Ninja and Thief should be side-by-side as JOBS in this game, not with one being an inferior base class to the other. No one's bringing it up, because it's not a debate appropriate to this thread, and really it's not a fight worth fighting. Yoshi P has pretty much straight-up stated that he doesn't see a place for Thief in this game (which is nonsense, and it wouldn't take much imagination to come up with a good identity for it). That doesn't mean that a lot of us aren't deeply bitter about it!

As someone who sympathizes with your plight, here's some fanfiction:

30 Alley Urchin

In Ul'dah, you meet a merchant that mentions a street urchin has been stealing food from stalls in Sapphire Avenue. He's so small and quick that the brass blades haven't been able to really do much to detain him (without actually trying to kill him). You decide to get involved and chase the urchin after his latest pilfering, and because you're the warrior of light, you succeed in catching up to the kid. The urchin's name is Arc, and he has been subsisting by stealing food since his parents died. He's started stealing more than usual (thus attracting all the recent attention) because he's looking after someone, and through that you meet a miqo'te name Nanaa. Arc's been stealing food and supplies to heal Nanaa's wounds, and assumes she's in some sort of trouble since she doesn't want to be taken to any "official" facilities.

Nanaa reveals to you that she's actually a member of an underground group called the Thieves' Guild. A den of rogues and outlaws that often hit rich caravans, but distribute the spoils among the downtrodden (like the poor people living in shacks outside the city walls). Other times they use their skills to explore ancient ruins in hopes of finding precious artifacts and treasure to sell and do the same. Nanaa mentions that their hideout was suddenly attacked and that she's the only survivor. While she recovers, she wants to piece together who was behind the attack and avenge her guildmates.

To ensure you will help, she gives you a token known as the Soul of the Thief and agrees to train you in their secrets. She also asks that you not tell any of this to Arc, feeling he's a bit too young to get involved in this mess (even if she admits he'd be a shoo-in for the guild once he's a little older).

---As far as where this goes, the ones behind the attack turn out to be a wealthy Ul'dahn merchant that was slighted by the Thieves' Guild and one of the guild's own members that turned on them. So the questline would basically be you putting it all together and then helping Nanaa kill the traitor and the Ul'dahn merchant. Yes, unlike other questlines, this one ends on questionable moral grounds. Nanaa herself tells you that as long as the wealthy in Ul'dah abuse the downtrodden, the guild will do what it must to even things out. The quest would emphasize that they act entirely on their own and are not affiliated with any government power.

[ChaozK]

I think, as most have said, RDM and SAM are the two most likeliest jobs to be added. I personally cant see them add a new healer at this point, since they are struggling hard to give AST its own niche.

When it comes to RDM i think people really try to overcomplicate things. If you go back to FF1, what were the assets of a RDM? It was a jack of all trades that was able to use both black and white magic and equip melee armor and weapons (most iconical one being the rapier). So imo the most pure form of a RDM in FFXIV would be as a melee dps with access to magic spells. Your spells would be your biggest source of damage but would cost a lot of MP, so most of the time you would be attacking with your melee attacks.

I see a lot of people arguing over semantics when it comes to labeling jobs. What we essentially have are 3 melees and 4 ranged dps - yes casters are ranged dps. On the other hand however people like to seperate the ranged dps into INT based ranged dps (casters) and DEX based ranged dps (support), while people dont seem to seperate the melees into STR melees (DRG/MNK) and DEX melees (NIN). Reason for that is that you usually want to have a dedicated slot for an INT ranged and one for a DEX ranged, while you have two slots for either combination of STR or DEX melee.

Due to this the best way to implement RDM would imo be, to make it a DEX based melee, that is competing for a dedicated support melee slot with NIN, as well as sharing gear with it. Ideally they would start to seperate STR and DEX melees more, further making NIN and RDM more utility focused and MNK/DRG more purely dps focused. This would be a similar balance that we have for ranged dps with INT being more purely dps and dex more about utility.

Furthermore i think this would would free up compositions a bit, since you could probably justify double casters comps a bit more if a melee could fill the support slot.

[SendohJin]

Actually, no, RDM is not unique in being the classic Final Fantasy job that can use the exact same spells as WHM and BLM, just at a lower level.

You wrote a whole rant about nothing, I meant RDM can be the only job in FFXIV that directly has Cure and Fire that other jobs in FFXIV already have without cross-classing them and without renaming it to something else like Cure, Benefic, Physick. Just take some existing White and Black Magic spells and add a RDM twist to them but don't redefine them completely.

---

I also played all FFs.

Mystic Knight is VERY iconic through the series.

So what games besides V are they iconic?

I'm all for jobs like Astrologian: it's a complete original idea utilizing some Time Mage traits, but it doesn't break Time Mage's identity to do it.

It's not completely original. It's Olan's job from FFT with an interesting mix of Gambler/Corsair/Time Mage/Healer skills.

---

So imo the most pure form of a RDM in FFXIV would be as a melee dps with access to magic spells.

That kind of RDM will have very few relevant White Magic spells and none that actually restores HP meaningfully in combat.

Furthermore i think this would would free up compositions a bit, since you could probably justify double casters comps a bit more if a melee could fill the support slot.

That would be terrible for BRD MCH players unless you find a way to make BRD MCH comps desirable.

---

WHAT void are we filling by creating red mage? There is nothing red mage would SOLVE in the game.

It's an alternative to WAR. The game has no glaring voids that's why we can play it just fine now. With an 8 man group you want every party slot to be capably filled by 2 different jobs.

Tank1 - PLD/DRK
Tank2 - WAR/RDM
mDPS1 - MNK/DRG
mDPS2 - NIN/SAM
rDPS1 - BRD/MCH
rDPS2 - SMN/BLM
Heal1 - SCH/???
Heal2 - WHM/AST

Why aren't we discussing why isn't Thief in this game yet?

Because it's Rogue, everybody who is not narrow minded knows this.

You have yet to produce a working template of how the job would work fitting into the duty finder mold.

I'm not going to sit down and map everything out with exact levels, Potency, %, TP and MP cost, that's just OCD to the extreme since they're not going to use our exact templates anyway.

Maybe I'll write up some basic skills/spells later when I have time.

[shao32]

Tank1 - PLD/DRK
Tank2 - WAR/SAM
mDPS1 - MNK/DRG
mDPS2 - NIN/RDM
rDPS1 - BRD/MCH
rDPS2 - SMN/BLM
Heal1 - SCH/???
Heal2 - WHM/AST

fixed

[SendohJin]

fixed

i don't particularly care if they switched if there's a logical way SAM doesn't end up as another heavy armored two-handed weapon wielding tank AND RDMs can meaningfully use Healing spells in a DPS role without somehow being a DPS lost.

Or we could just make one of the most iconic jobs a Tank, you know one that actually has looked and played the part through multiple iterations throughout the series.

they certainly look the part sometimes but how and where do they play the part? Tenzen, Ayame and Auron are certainly not tanks.