Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

[joshdavis271]

Yes because RDM is a job that can use both black and white magic in previous FF games. In order to do that in FFXIV it needs to be able to do 2 different roles since we have the trinity of job roles.

The only problem is, SE is stepping away from the armory system, so there goes the 2 soulstone idea, besides, I doubt SE would do 2 stones being as it was a disaster. If they do by chance do 2 soulstones, then they would have to split RDM into 2 different classes, again they do not want to draw from the armory system going forward, this will still elem,inate RDM as a class and be split into 2 totally different classes.

[Nyerieri]

snip

Kudos. You said exactly what I have been saying. Astrologian is a nightmare, and somehow, someway people around here want to force another hybrid down our throats that will inherently suck due to red mages lore.

I look forward to the days of casting stone 1 over and over again as red mage since they have to keep white mage with the better stone spells (It's not like 11 where we have 20 stone spells to chose from)

[Duelle]

If we can't have uniqueness, why add any new jobs at all?

Again, limiting your focus to only uniqueness limits your options. Not to mention that uniqueness has never been RDM's forte because it has always been a job that borrows from BLM, WHM and fighter.

If we're talking about helping classes differentiate from each other, gameplay is where you do it, and I sure as hell would not ask for RDM to have the astral fire/umbral ice mechanic of BLM, nor ACN's stack mechanic.

Also last I checked Fire/Blizzard/Thunder were all domain of Black Mage.

And RDM borrowing from BLM would be par for the course with how it's been designed since the first FF game.

Not to mention that a BLM and RDM can have different approaches to using the same spells. A BLM can burn down the door to a room, whereas a RDM may use their weaker fire spell to melt the hinges or weaken the lock so that the door can be forced open with relatively little effort.

What are they going to draw from white mage?

A singular heal with a catch (because you don't want utility to supersede the job's main role in a party). In addition, if RDM were to cross class from CNJ, you'd get Protect, Stoneskin, Cure and Raise (out of combat). RDM is one of the few jobs that would greatly benefit from the game's cross-class design, and again this would be par for the course with what RDM borrows from WHM.

Also dual utility as a dps and healer would hurt their bubble of "we have to have a tank, a healer, and DPS, no exceptions".

This entirely depends on the limiting factors that are part of the job's design. A heal that is inconvenient to use most of the time is not going to overtake your other duties in-group because by design the group benefits most from you hitting things with your sword and weaving attack spells in.

the reason red mage worked well in 11 is because white mage and black mage had wide access to a LOT of different spells compared to 14.

The reason RDM "worked" was because it was shoehorned into a niche that had nothing to do with being the guy that casts spells and wields a sword (enfeebling), but then players discovered RDM was infinitely more beneficial to them due to cure/refresh/haste.

Spell-wise the only real differences between RDM and the other two mages was the lack of AoE and lack of higher tier spells. This is also par for the course with how RDM has been since the first FF game.

I also disagree with the fact 11 made red mage into some "sit in the back and heal/haste/refresh" job since they had a lot of utility later on with soloing.

Soloing was and continues to be a poor excuse for how terribly the job is treated in party content, AKA the thing the entirety of FFXI is designed around. It'd be like claiming the crap BSTs went through was okay because they could solo their levels, or that SMNs terrible design is somehow forgivable because of carby pulls and astral flow.

[LineageRazor]

White and Black magic: I've noticed a lot of folks assuming that Red Mage, in gaining both black and white magic, will actually gain spells like Fire II, Cure, etc. This does not have to be the case! There's no reason that RDM has to gain spells that already exist in the game. Do you really think that the entirety of the field of White Magic consists of the pitiful twentyish number of spells WHM has in the game (and, lest we forget, strictly speaking most of those spells aren't "White Magic" but rather Conjoury). No, there are doubtless THOUSANDS of different White Magic spells in existence, and RDM will use spells not possessed by WHM. Ditto Black Magic.

Kiting tank: While I doubt RDM will be tank, there's no reason why a casting tank needs to be a ranged/kiting tank. Similarly, there's no reason spell interruption needs to be a concern; an obvious weakness like that would not be implemented. RDM would either be uninterruptable, or cast all necessary tanking spells instantly. If folks insist that a caster MUST be able to cast at range, and MUST have a casting bar, simply because our current caster classes do, there's always the possibility of a tanking stance to cover this; with the stance off, RDM behaves like a caster, with all associated strengths and weaknesses. With it on, their spells become instant cast and their range is reduced to five yalms.

RDM in FFXI: From the day RDM got Refresh up until the day WHM became the only viable healer (thanks to Cures V and VI), RDM was a HIGHLY valued class in FFXI - and not just as a Refresh-bot and competent healer. Once RDM got a toehold with Refresh, the devs continued to refine it as a support job, showering it with debuffing spells and the highest Enfeebling skill in the game in order to make them stick. Mitigation through spells like Slow, Paralyze, Silence, Gravity, Blind, and Sleep was very valuable, and even most bosses were vulnerable to at least some of them. Even after WHM was tuned into the ultimate healer and jobs previously capable of taking on healing roles were left in the dust, RDM was still valued in endgame content for the variety and power of their debuffs.

It is true, though, that RDM in FFXI never fulfilled its "classic" role as a spell-slinging swordfighter, with rapier in one hand and a fireball in the other. While given a modestly high swordsmanship skill, RDMs generally used Elemental Staves, just as other casters did, and stayed far away from the front-lines. Nonetheless, it's not fair to say that it was ever a failure of a job.

Interestingly, this game DOES have a MUCH better chance at retooling RDM into a front-line mage/fighter hybrid. Folks simply have to let go of the notion that Red Mage will be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, as it has (occasionally) been prior. Whatever role SE assigns RDM to, it will be a master of that role, just the same as other jobs in that role. Balance is the first and foremost concern, and will take precedence over whatever "classic" notions individuals feel will "ruin the job!" if they're not included.

[SendohJin]

We would have a job that just facerolls over BLM like no yesterday.

You are one of the most narrow minded posters I've ever seen on any forum. How does a job that doesn't have Astral Fire II/III, can't use Flare or Enochian Fire IV going to Faceroll over BLM?

Also, last time I checked Flash and Fire II are not alike. Flash is instant vs casting time for fire II.

Yes, the point is to make jobs feel/play different that don't overlap each other but still function similarly. They are not supposed to be 100% alike. Overpower is also conal, you complain things are too similar and will faceroll over existing jobs and at the same time complain they are not similar enough.

Fire II also doesn't generate much enmity at all if the tank is actually doing his or her job.

That's why a RDM Tank would have Phalanx that increase defense and increases enmity (just like Shield Oath, Defiance, Grit), Aquaveil that decreases spell interruption/allows for parry while casting, Fast Cast traits that reduce but doesn't eliminate casting time. Blaze Spikes that increase Enmity for all fire based spells.

Still have no idea why people want to finish the holy trinity. I would rather have a more creative job then a rehash of a pld/drk/whm/sch/ast.

Because RDM is iconic to FF and molding Sword, White Magic, Black Magic into a usable job without trashing balance can also be creative.

PS - How often do Paladins actually use Clemency? Last time I checked I had no problem healing as a white mage where they would need to use it. Brb going to actually count the times a paladin uses clemency in one day. Will report back my results tomorrow!

Why does that matter? PLD is not casting focused, RDM would be. And WAR has Inner Beast, Storm's Path, Thrill of Battle, Equilibrium, Blood Bath all of which give them HP back in one way or another. RDM would be a lot less tanky than PLD so it would want to have more self curative spells, abilities and traits.

The point isn't to make RDM exactly like PLD or WAR, it's supposed to be different enough from the other tanks so that people want to play it but still similar enough so that you can swap them out in DF and not notice a difference. and you would be able to raid with a DRK + RDM tank combo as well as you can with a PLD + WAR combo.

----

White and Black magic: I've noticed a lot of folks assuming that Red Mage, in gaining both black and white magic, will actually gain spells like Fire II, Cure, etc. This does not have to be the case!

No, it certainly doesn't have to be the case. But one uniqueness of RDM can be because it's the only job that does. I'm not assumng they will have those spells I want it to.

Folks simply have to let go of the notion that Red Mage will be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, as it has (occasionally) been prior.

But why should they when it's very viable to make it work. People do want a tank that can challenge the utility of WAR in OT situations and RDM on paper has every capability to do that. The Black Magic to do good DPS in a tank role but not so great as to rival BLM which is the actual DPS job. The White Magic to sustain itself in similar fashion that WARs currently can but not so overpowering that you can main heal like WHM. The only issue then is utility and mitigation. It's certainly viable between Phalanx, Stoneskin, Parrying and some other White Magic it can be competent at mitigation, but nobody is going to say it's a Master of Mitigation, PLD and DRK will still edge it out. It just has to be tanky enough to not die to tank busters and it will be usuable in the current game design.

[Mugiawara]

They're having such headaches with astro, I think they're just going to rehaul the whole class in 4.0 and fix it because although it can compete with white mage in raiding atm, nocturnal sect still cannot. To pull the things off that a scholar can easily do they need to put in a lot more effort compared to scholar. The class is a mess. I also think they have no clue what to do with healers considering they think the white mage/scholar combo is so good that they tried to make a healer which incorporated both jobs into one....and well we know how that turned out.

They need to really figure out what the hell to do with the N.stance.
It's been over a year now. They should of put more focus and thought onto the cards or something and make AST it's own fresh job.
Not mix up 2-for-1 and get this.

At this point, if you can't fix this skill you might as well do away with it...Do away with the Stances or allow us to use them in the middle of battle or something.
I had a few suggestions like the stance you're in depends on how the cards will be effected...but that'll probably be OP too.
I dunno how RDM is going to faire if it comes out, that's why everyone's been thinking really hard on what they can
do to it...I'm not a RDM fan but it's going to suck balls when it comes out and it kinda has to go through over a years worth of fixes to be on point
if not more. So if they wanna play hybrids, they probably should stop.

[Rbstr]

I really hope they'll have one of each type. It'd kinda suck to not have something new for each role.
With HW they added a dps+support so I imagine in 4.0 they'll do a more pure DPS class.
Then they'll probably have a tank patterned closer to the Warrior (where DRK's basics are PLD-like). Red Mage actually works very well here.
I don't have a prediction in healing.

I think RDM's blend of Black and White magic and melee ability lends itself to FFXIV's tank type very well. Its jack-of-all-trades tradition is really perfect for a tank as tanks already are jacks-of-all-trades jobs. They're capable of decent physical damage, they need to be up close and personal with the boss, and they have need for many non-dps abilities for cooldowns and utility including self heals and one/two ranged damage options.
An RDM tank could, for example, re-tool current BLM/WHM spells and mechanics as tanking tools by making them behave differently. Astral Fire and Umbral Ice could be dps/tank stances, they could use stoneskin as a barrier-type cooldown and cure becomes something like equilibrium. You can even throw in en-spells as part of how they poke bosses in the face.

RDM tank is one of the two ways to really keep the job's flavor intact.
The other option is a melee-range bard/machinist-like dps+support. But we'll have three of those then and that seems a bit much at this point.
The problem with RDM being pure DPS is that it will get much harder to fit a substantial number of white magic abilities in.

Of course, I would prefer SAM as a tank personally. I feel like it could have a bunch of counter-based mechanics.
The other thing I think would be fun is a magic-y barrier-type tank. Geomancer could do it.

[SendohJin]

Point being there are other FF Jobs that more readily "fit" the magic Tank role

The FFXIV dev team is very comfortable combining job concepts. It's 100% reasonable to expect that Rune Fencer traits/skills/spells will end up in any magic tank job that gets created. The question would be what is the front facing JOB that they choose.

Here are the current examples:
- Ranger has been co-opted by Archer and Bard. Shadowbind, Sidewinder, you're never going to see RNG in FFXIV.
- Thief has been co-opted by Rogue and Ninja. Mug, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Dancing Edge, you're never going to see THF in FFXIV. FFXI AF is literally called Rogue's Attire and is used by FFXIV Rogue NPCs.
- Gambler/Corsair to a certain extent, their Cards and Dice have been co-opted by Astrologians, the Corsair gun was co-opted by Machinists. Was there ever an FF game with cards and dice at the same time? I can't remember. And the Setzer Gambler gearset is in the Gold Saucer.

So for SOME job to have both Rune Fencer and Red Mage characteristics rolled together it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

3 main reasons they actually choose the job that they do
- Story/Lore (they like Ninja better than Rogue/Thief because they want to relate some lore to Doma, they don't like the concept of Adventurers being thieves)
- Gear Design (every once in awhile besides generic Fending/Striking/Aiming/Casting etc gearsets we get some JSE), they like fanservice (hey look it's Kain/Shadow/Yang/Rydia/Vivi's outfit)
- Animation/Weapon Design (Dual Wield and Guns were things we didn't have yet and could have unique animations still)

Given those 3 characteristics
- Lore (RDM vs Rune Fencer doesn't really matter, can be written either way really)
- Gear Design (the 3 most fanservicy things still missing are RDM, SAM and BLU, nowhere does Rune Fencer hold a candle to that)
- Animation/Weapon Design (all those Rune Fencer concepts look like Great Swords, they already gave that to DRK, we don't have Rapiers and stabbing animations)

Similarly, I think if they were to make BLU a thing, they might actually go with more of a Quina like Fork weapon, a Whip or even steal the Bell from Geomancer rather then give them the FFXI Scimitars.

No need to sacrifice a Job more suited to a DPS role simply to hope for the off chance that Samurai not be placed in the Role it was originally envisioned in by the development team

There's no reason to say RDM is more suited for a DPS role. BLM has always been the iconic DPS job. RDM should never be able to put out the DPS that a BLM does.

I don't consider SAM at all when I think about how RDM best fits into the game. I think about how a RDM could play in 4 man dungeons and in every EX Trial. Soloing is also completely insignificant, any implementation of it will be fine soloing.

[Fevelle]

- Gear Design (the 3 most fanservicy things still missing are RDM, SAM and BLU, nowhere does Rune Fencer hold a candle to that)

HERESY!! Not only are you referring to Mystic Knights as Rune Fencers but also saying that their gear is not memorable!! Sickness must be purged! (and fantasy arabian knight gear must be obtained!)

There's no reason to say RDM is more suited for a DPS role. BLM has always been the iconic DPS job. RDM should never be able to put out the DPS that a BLM does.

Actually this is wrong. Since FFV Red Mages have been a powerhouse when it comes to spellcasting due to their iconic Dualcast ability. Sometimes they could outdamage BLM by a lot, especially when dualcasting multiple-hit spells like Comet/Meteor.

[SendohJin]

I've played every FF except 2 and 5. It's not my fault those games didn't come out in the US when they were created.

HERESY!! Not only are you referring to Mystic Knights as Rune Fencers

I'm not, the other guy linked Rune Fencer pics.

but also saying that their gear is not memorable!! Sickness must be purged! (and fantasy arabian knight gear must be obtained!)

I have no idea what that picture is and sure they can make that Arabian Knight gear for whatever just like how we have the Rogue's Attire, the i180 Eastern style gear for every job, the Barbarian style stuff from Sohm Al. It's a nice glamour set but how iconic is that through the series? Can't the thavnairian set pass as one of those? I guess if they want to emphasize Thavnarian lore for a job they can go that route.

Actually this is wrong. Since FFV Red Mages have been a powerhouse when it comes to spellcasting due to their iconic Dualcast ability. Sometimes they could outdamage BLM by a lot, especially when dualcasting multiple-hit spells like Comet/Meteor.

"Since FFV" or "in FFV", what else besides FFV is it an iconic DPS powerhouse?

And it would be FFV's fault for breaking the mold that previous FF has established for the job letting RDM cast high tier spells like Meteor. One exception doesn't make it the standard.