Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[Mraj]

I also think a lot of the trepidation that players have towards challenge in MMOs, especially this game, has to do with playing with other people. There is always that one guy in every group who has done the content 20-30 times already by the time they hit the run with you, and if you haven't watched all the guides and perform all the moves perfectly, they go full man-child on you and throw a tantrum of legendary proportions in party chat.

That can get under the skin of even the more seasoned MMO players, and is not particularly enjoyable.

So, in a game like this where random parties are a crux of the game for many people, a lot of them are not going to be happy with the idea of an extremely challenging duty... not because of the challenge, but because of what it brings out in the more "hardcore" players.

I think that attitude stems from the content being more of a dance with specific steps that must be done a certain way to ensure the party doesn't wipe. Naturally, people will have to practice more ( or less ) depending on skill level, and finding consistent groups at the same level can be difficult, as we've seen over the years. Again, I'd just like to stress that content difficulty should not mean "more phases" in trials, but instead content that can be considered difficult while being able to be handled dynamically.

For instance, going back to "dangerous" zones - there can be ways to avoid mob heavy areas, or there may be better times of day ( or night ) to move through an area. Sure, you can try to charge through solo, or with a full party to back you up, but your chances of success go down - but are never 0%.

Or let's take an example that is already in the game. So you're in Diadem, and someone shouts that they have tracks, then activates them....Boom. All of a sudden you have a Brachiosaurus stomping around the island ( you'd best hope it's a spacious one ). Tanks immediately have to grab aggro and turn away his long-necked cleave of death. Healers have to reposition as best they can ( while being mindful of other mobs that may be in area ) and prepare for Meteor. But you also have options: you have elevation and proximity damage that you can use or exploit. You have numbers, or a lack of numbers, that determines how hard the mob is. Ignoring the whole implementation of rewards and various other Diadem gripes, it's a fair attempt at more interesting mob types.

My thinking is we can keep EX trials and Savage Raids but also have content that encourages people to explore these dangerous areas and band together to accomplish objectives.

[Zojha]

Honestly I feel like monsters in general even in instances feel like lifeless punching bags.

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic - typically a cone that's easy to dodge, bats have lifesteal, some others poison procs or a gaze attack (Serpents in Quarn HM come to mind) maybe a class ability for humanoid NPCs etc - it becomes most obvious in palace of the dead, because you fight through just about every trash there is. IIRC, Ninki Nankas don't aggro if you walk rather than run either (At least in Hullbreaker they don't). Final Sting is one of the most well known trash abilities by far I wager. Drakes in southern Thanalan also employ a fire shield buff that hurts attackers much akin to a counterstance. Ironically especially in low level areas, you can also find monsters "linked" - typically Mandragora.

Magitek Colossi have overdrive, cleave, exhaust and a targeted AoE. Seems like a bunch, but are they really challenging for that? Toads have Vasoconstrictor and Labored Leap plus Tongue, but does that make them much of a threat? Succubi have Fire II and Dark Mist, some also have Sweet Steel (Haukke HM and up). I could go on, but...you know. I don't feel mobs actually lack mechanics/abilities, but the fact that we can move freely to easily avoid them, rather than being locked in place with every action skill, makes them seem a lot less threatening - plus the fact that we can clearly see where the attack goes in the first place. There's also stuns and other CC freely available to trivialize them further. And in group dungeons, healers are OP anyhow, so if it doesn't kill instantly, it can often be ignored.

The other criticism I feel is actually valid is that many of the abilities of monsters do, in fact, not feel very organic. They have a generic casting animation and things happen - All of the Succubi preparation/casting animations are one and the same, rather than being unique and fitting for each ability. Similar applies to other monsters - a Jackal using Sanguite Bite looks like he's casting Stone, rather than preparing to jump at your throat (And Foul Bite doesn't seem to have any animation at all). Same goes for Final Sting and many, many other abilities. Even if the substance remains unchanged, it makes monsters feel less lively.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

snip

You brought up how we can easily dodge moves due to the attacks being telegraphed and I remember how some complaints of 1.0 was how nearly everything was animation locked, thus if you attacked at the wrong time or the enemy just happened to unleash an AOE right after you started your attack, you got hosed. Other than making enemies have shorter charge times, hit harder, or removing telegraphs completely, we aren't going to have anything harder when it comes to trash mobs.

[Windi]

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

Status effects should be used more often too. It'd give me a reason to use stuff like Echo Drops.

[The_NPC]

Duty Finder can be hell or heaven depending on the group, thats this games mid-core challange right there... that said a more "Threatening & Scary" Open-world would be nice (like no-mount zones for 2.0 area's & no-fly zones for 3.0, throw in some high-ilv enemy spawning tripewires & give fixed enemies a knockback move that they actually move into place to knock you into said tripewire... that might make 2.0 tribe-strongholds scary again aside from the "oh they hit me with heavy, now its gona take me longer to get outa here"... that & maybe make it so regardless of lv difference a Stronghold guard will try to kill u even if they can't, only thing I find interesting from Destiny aside from a item-lock function is a lv5 trash mob can still kill u regardless of how much higher lv u are)

[MilesSaintboroguh]

That sounds more annoying than scary. Something straight out of the Palace of the Dead from the sounds of it.

[Sandpark]

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic - typically a cone that's easy to dodge, bats have lifesteal, some others poison procs or a gaze attack (Serpents in Quarn HM come to mind) maybe a class ability for humanoid NPCs etc - it becomes most obvious in palace of the dead, because you fight through just about every trash there is. IIRC, Ninki Nankas don't aggro if you walk rather than run either (At least in Hullbreaker they don't). Final Sting is one of the most well known trash abilities by far I wager. Drakes in southern Thanalan also employ a fire shield buff that hurts attackers much akin to a counterstance. Ironically especially in low level areas, you can also find monsters "linked" - typically Mandragora.

Magitek Colossi have overdrive, cleave, exhaust and a targeted AoE. Seems like a bunch, but are they really challenging for that? Toads have Vasoconstrictor and Labored Leap plus Tongue, but does that make them much of a threat? Succubi have Fire II and Dark Mist, some also have Sweet Steel (Haukke HM and up). I could go on, but...you know. I don't feel mobs actually lack mechanics/abilities, but the fact that we can move freely to easily avoid them, rather than being locked in place with every action skill, makes them seem a lot less threatening - plus the fact that we can clearly see where the attack goes in the first place. There's also stuns and other CC freely available to trivialize them further. And in group dungeons, healers are OP anyhow, so if it doesn't kill instantly, it can often be ignored.

The other criticism I feel is actually valid is that many of the abilities of monsters do, in fact, not feel very organic. They have a generic casting animation and things happen - All of the Succubi preparation/casting animations are one and the same, rather than being unique and fitting for each ability. Similar applies to other monsters - a Jackal using Sanguite Bite looks like he's casting Stone, rather than preparing to jump at your throat (And Foul Bite doesn't seem to have any animation at all). Same goes for Final Sting and many, many other abilities. Even if the substance remains unchanged, it makes monsters feel less lively.

Just because something is trash mob doesn't mean it should be braindead.

They do have some in fight mechanics. The fact you can dodge them, means you can theoretically not get hurt at all in an encounter or heal through it easy. Dark Souls handles this by limiting healing resources. Which is not possible here since this is a multiplayer game. So the best thing SE could do is make the hits when they actually hit you, sting like hell without one shotting. The stuns and CC are fine as long as the enemy can do the same thing to you. The tables are more even when an enemy can hurt you just as bad. The common mmo thing to make fights last longer is mount HP galore onto enemies. But that just becomes tedious if smart thought can't turn for the good or bad in an instant.

I don't necessarily ask for difficulty, because that is subjective to each player. Every encounter should require thought though or this might as well be a hack n slash game. The AI they stripped from aggro mechanics in the open world removes the thought. And that is why it should come back.

[Jynx]

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic

The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

[bass9020]

The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

Didn't Chigoes in 1.0 almost KO you if you used certain attacks on them? I remember doing leves/behests and we had to be careful when fighting chigoes. I could be totally wrong its been so long but its stuff like that I wish we still had.