Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[Naunet]

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

[Tolmos]

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

Wildstar isn't exactly a great example, though. The niche it was trying to fill was specifically hardcore raiders who were disenfranchised with the "easy" nature of other MMOs.

Turns out, there weren't too many of those, and now Wildstar is in bad shape.

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

[Kallera]

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help...

In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

[Naunet]

In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

No, we have no in-combat resurrection abilities in WildStar, though there have certainly been times when I would have liked one. The raids are 25-man, so depending on the player and situation, losing one person is not necessarily the end of the world. But it's very, very easy for that to spiral out of control.

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

[Tolmos]

That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

Oops, sorry. My fault. I thought it was.

What about savage mode stuff? Maybe I'm just getting old and my reflexes are dulling a bit, but that seems pretty tough to me.

[Sandpark]

One note: If AI aggro mechanics came back like 1.0. I hope zones and enemy spacing is a bit wider. I noticed on most modern mmos they try and slap them into tight spaces forcing the fight. You should be able to avoid them either through smart play or sometimes just going around them.

[Naunet]

When I quit, we were doing Second Coil, and it was before Savage Mode had been released, so I can't really speak to their difficulty very much. I recall reading about it as it was upcoming content, and at the time it was basically billed as the current difficulty of raids, while the "normal modes" would be released as easier versions. If that is the case, then I'd say while those had their moments of difficulty, they don't really come close to other content I've tackled (in WildStar, but also in other MMOs). First and Second Coil were mechanically very simple. If Savage Mode has become something far more, then I wouldn't know.

However, that would be a single raid out of the entire content. All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either. The thing that killed people the most was telegraph lag (think the Titan EX landslides), not the genuine difficulty of a fight. I think the fact that 99% of the content is ridiculously easy definitely creates a community that expects and grows used to easy content. I think that is what plays a large role in the "one wipe and we quit" mentality that permeates the game, as well.

[Tolmos]

All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either.

I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets? This wouldn't really solve the issue of the fights themselves being simplistic, but some of the heavensward 4-mans were actually rather involved, and having recently done some of them at the intended ilvl, I felt it kept me on my toes for most of the boss fights.

[ADVSS]

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to somethin

i still wish arf was set to i200, i mean those tomes man. As far as difficulty in content? Until the entire system is changed especially the relic steps, it wont matter too entirely much' Raid gear? ugly af, and looks the same as story raid gear. Usuable in next raid? hell no that new dank primal weapon is what theyre going to use, for 3 weeks until they get that tome weapon. if dungeons were even more difficult since all they are is tome dispensers, theyd probably be dead because at end game people are either building up tome gear, powering up relics or gearing through raids with a boring stat allocation. Hell some even do hunts because its faster easier and less of a headache than dealing with dailies and the chance they may get a run thats entirely too long for their tastes.

[Shurrikhan]

I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets?

As long as you left it an option, and the sync worked both ways (the more your gear is scaled down, the higher the reward – including daily bonus(?) – is scaled up) I doubt anyone would complain.