Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

[Jynx]

Allot of people think I'm asking for just high hp mobs and that's not really the case...

[DPZ2]

Imagine 4.0 wherever we go doesn't matter. We start our new journey in a new town and our first over-arching goal is to get to the next town, this in itself should be a challenge. We should walk outside the gates of the town and quake in our boots at what lay before us. Monsters lurk off the beaten path waiting to devour any foolish enough to stray, but great treasures and glory lay beyond things we need to get into the next area.

What do we do?

We open up our favorite search engine in our favorite web browser and carefully follow the instructions given to us by people who have played this before, never thinking about what we are doing, only being assured that if we do this thing we will survive to get to the next town.

If it becomes a hassle to enough people, the devs will nerf the heck out of the area or the game will become yet another F2P niche MMO with a somewhat interesting take on Open World game play.

If you really want that level of excitement (without the graphics) find a really good story-teller [aka Dungeon Master] and play a game that utilizes that best of all game resources -- your imagination.

As someone who bought the first revision of D&D at San Diego Comic Con back before either became popular, nothing beats the human imagination with the aid of a few rules and some dice.

[Atoli]

Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

Yes.

Are you personally afraid of a challenge?

Everyday is a constant struggle to survive in the world of those who, by principle, enter df alone. I challenge myself though the means of bad teammates.
It's fun. It's hard. Even the easiest content becomes really hard. I enjoy this varying difficulty level. I do not want additional difficulty added on top of that, because that would make it impossible to clear anything with just a pick-up group.

[Shurrikhan]

I love a challenge, I'm just afraid of the stupid, carry me pls people in DF.

Talk about challenge, I think pug with random is the real challenge that a lot of ppl afraid of it. ^^;

Everyday is a constant struggle to survive in the world of those who, by principle, enter df alone. I challenge myself though the means of bad teammates.
It's fun. It's hard. Even the easiest content becomes really hard. I enjoy this varying difficulty level. I do not want additional difficulty added on top of that, because that would make it impossible to clear anything with just a pick-up group.

With all these, I gotta ask: would the game and its difficulty (or how it acquires difficulty) be more enjoyable if people actually had to know what they're doing with their class/job and role?
Imagine the means for that however you like.

[Mraj]

Challenge / complexity can exist outside DF trials / primal fights. More difficult / heavily scripted fights wouldn't do much for players looking for more fun, given that it's a fight that you either win or fail.

What I think the game needs is content that gives players freedom to confront difficulty outside of scripted content. For example, a revised and revamped diadem concept. Or later expansions to Palace of Dead. Give people the option and incentives to do "difficult" content that won't alienate PUG players. More difficult dungeons wouldn't be awful, but I'd expect to have to do the dungeon less / have multiple routes so that players had a choice.

Dungeon Example: Speed / guaranteed clear or going deeper / chance of additional rewards, with more risk.

[Jynx]

Of course the game would be more enjoyable if everyone was responsible for their role.

Only way to enforce that is to have repurcussions for poor gameplay but as long as the focus of the game is on the duty finder and random grouping.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Of course the game would be more enjoyable if everyone was responsible for their role.

Only way to enforce that is to have repurcussions for poor gameplay but as long as the focus of the game is on the duty finder and random grouping.

Those repercussions can only be taken so far before you start losing players. If the entire open world is one big slaughtering ground unless you have a party, people are going to lose interest fast. I certainly would, and not because of some perceived anti-challenge notion. Being killed by toad mobs because I couldn't happen to find a tank willing to run to x city with me just isn't fun. And as that is the primary reason I play any game, I can't say I would continue playing this one if it ever reached a point where it's more tedious or frustrating than fun.

[Jynx]

Those repercussions can only be taken so far before you start losing players. If the entire open world is one big slaughtering ground unless you have a party, people are going to lose interest fast.

Nowhere do I suggest that it be impossible to travel once you have got through the zone once. Think of it as having a aetherite at the end and have the roads themselves be fairly safe, but have objectives beyond the path that require some effort or teamwork.

Then again I probably have a different definition of fun than you do as frustration is part of how I enjoy my games. If they aren't challenging me then it's not really fun.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Nowhere do I suggest that it be impossible to travel once you have got through the zone once. Think of it as having a aetherite at the end and have the roads themselves be fairly safe, but have objectives beyond the path that require some effort or teamwork.

Then again I probably have a different definition of fun than you do as frustration is part of how I enjoy my games. If they aren't challenging me then it's not really fun.

Problem with that is the challenge is rendered obsolete almost instantly because if you up the difficulty to that extent, people will always teleport. I would rather new mechanics be introduced that have a lasting appeal. Ideally, I'd love to see hunts reworked into world bosses with actual mechanics and a means to prevent people zerging them down.

And oh, I don't mind frustration in my difficulty. I've put silly little challenges on my games in the past. I just don't like difficulty that feels more tedious than fun. Case in point, in Mass Effect 2, I did a no-cover Vanguard run and cursed like a sailor the whole way through. Was a blast though, especially one fight you're not supposed to even win. Now flip to FFX's No Sphere Grid and I just never found it fun. Might be turned based combat rearing its limitations over action, but when I think of hard content, I want the fights itself to be interesting and engaging not just supped up mobs.

[Shurrikhan]

And oh, I don't mind frustration in my difficulty. I've put silly little challenges on my games in the past. I just don't like difficulty that feels more tedious than fun. Case in point, in Mass Effect 2, I did a no-cover Vanguard run and cursed like a sailor the whole way through. Was a blast though, especially one fight you're not supposed to even win. Now flip to FFX's No Sphere Grid and I just never found it fun. Might be turned based combat rearing its limitations over action, but when I think of hard content, I want the fights itself to be interesting and engaging not just supped up mobs.

A lot of the best examples I can remember of urgency in a turn-based comes down to FF bosses that had something of a soft enrage, or just really wanting the thing to die already, while having certain things to be maintained between gambits of burst or reduced personal defense (no Shell/Veil for Death because you were pushing a burn), or any particular burn phases where you had the option of either bunkering down or just pushing even harder, desperately so, in order to swap phases or suppress damage. Weirdly enough, most of the examples coming to mind come from the XIII series, for all its bad wrap. Bits also from VIII, IX, and X though. The rest, it's just been too long since I've played, I guess.

And even those can easily end up feeling tedious rather than urgent, especially when no soft enrage or appropriate scaling is present to make the fight feel right at more than just one level of stat or trait quantity/power.

I would rather new mechanics be introduced that have a lasting appeal. Ideally, I'd love to see hunts reworked into world bosses with actual mechanics and a means to prevent people zerging them down.

I feel like there is so damn much potential in open world boss fights, if they really went whole hog. There could even be aspects of trying to scare the boss out of one place, having him fly off to another area where its mechanics differ, ramping up enough total enmity to cause it to change its tactics.... Open world bosses have at least as much potential for interesting mechanics as any of our instanced raid boss; where our raid bosses can be pushed phase by phase to adjustment of their environments, the open world boss has randomization or multiple options in both initial position and later displaced or phased/replaced environments, can excuse a larger play area than would fit most raids (except perhaps the original T5?), and necessitate scaling for whatever combination of player, ilvl, and role count. Just thinking about 4.0 (been imagining a myth-encroached Sharlayan and surrounding lands), I can't help but include them in my daydreams.