Power-leveling is absolutely BROKEN

[Zenaku]

Here's my issue with Yoshida's mindset:

What this essentially accomplishes, is that new players can skip the low-mid game's content so that they can play with their friends (who PL them). This is wrong on two levels: first, well, being able to skip most of the game sure does not sit well with me. Secondly, you create high level newbs that were essentially carried to the top like babies.

And with the second point, the biggest flaw becomes clear: Leveling is no longer an accomplishment of any kind. It takes practically no effort, and requires no dedication from the player's end. That said, important question arises: what is the point of having levels in this game in the first place? No dedication required. No skill required (which is a given). Leveling becomes as much of an accomplishment as getting Steam "accomplishments". You managed to create a character, ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED! That said, leveling becomes a waste of time. There is no point in even that tiny effort the game requires from you to get to level 50. It could be taken away and no one would care- whats the difference between 2 days of PLing and just, you know, starting at level 50? Former is just annoying and leaves you with no satisfaction (you just want to be done with it), the latter gets to the point directly and accomplishes what Yoshida seemingly wants to accomplish- to allow for newbs to jump right in and play with their friends.

All that said, do not assume that I am in favor of neither option. I like the leveling process. Once upon a time it required actual dedication, it felt like a real accomplishment once you were done and really, now, I always liked the fact that there was something new waiting for me around the corner, whether it be trip to Kazham or hunting for genkai items in Eldieme. Seeing a level 65 character was so BAD-ASS, being a lowly level 42 at the time. It may have been too rough of a process, but that roughness made it an accomplishment because it took dedication (and patience) to overcome it. Not Skill, but that is not a requirement and has never been.

It may not be what the game needs, but what I will argue is that making leveling into a mere annoyance you want to be done with ASAP is not what the game needs.

Alternatives: Level Sync. Instead of making the low level players skip the whole rest of the game in favor of doing the endgame stuff with a higher level friend, make the high level friend come down from his throne to help the low level player as an equal (strength wise) instead. You can still help him level, but it's not a matter of sucking on a thumb while you decimate the monsters but fighting equally where both members get to actually participate.

What I see as a downside to this is that the high level friend has to put in more effort to help the low level fellow, and has to re-do content he has done before and can't just keep doing his awesome endgame epic raiddungeonifrithypermodes. But let's face it: he has already dedicated himself to the game, and playing with a friend is ultimately pretty enjoyable regardless of your level. It's not a huge effort to ask. Not to mention the fact that he can also accomplish things for himself in the process. He can level new classes/jobs or accummulate spiritbond for his equipment.

Since (as far as I know) the EXP you gain from monsters is determined by the TNL of your current level (or in this case, synced level) the issue of XI where people could level to 75 in a level sync party in Qufim would be less likely to occur. Since there is a benefit in fighting mobs of your current level. I may be wrong in my assumption however.

All in all, I hope that Yoshida reconsiders his stance and thinks up some alternatives instead. I have made my opinion clear, and I think there is some weight to it.

Level Sync,EXP band,link account"not as crazy as wow version" you still have to level and still grow as you play but you get there little faster not a mad way of doing it. Vs get someone to pl you go watch tv and come back and gain 15-20 level of watching a movie.

[Issac]

Alright, I went through the first 20 pages picking up random points of interest in the issue at hand. I'm not doing this to show how many people agree. Heck, the list started getting too long and I was growing tired of rereading everything so I skipped to the end for the last point. Anyway, here they are:

I completely agree. It might as well be considered cheating >_>

When leveling is that easy, all the gear from 1-49 is completely and utterly useless.

I'm just not sure I understand SE's design methodology. Character progression is the most crucial part of an MMO.

You throw a exploitable mechanic in a MMO, and expect players will not exploit it.
Welcome to wonderland.

There isn't even 10% of the end game content they'd need to satisfy advancement as rapid as this. Even if you argue leveling should be easy or nonexistent and the game should focus on content for high levels, that content needs to exist before people get there and right now it doesn't. How can anyone be in favor of this?

Ok, why not just start the game fully geared, inside the Ifrit instance, in a party. I mean why not, let's just cut to the chase. Screw the working up to it. This leveling nonsense is tiresome. Let's just make the game a circular room with doors to a bunch of different raids. Sounds like an RPG to me!

I loved this game and I'm here since Open Beta. I'm a fan of Yoishi's work, but this is ridiculous. I can't find a good solution for this. An update? People are powerleveling like crazies right now. They can do a rollback, but I don't think they are going to do that.

What?
And, what's is the point of the economy? I haven't said anything about that. I just said the content pre-50 is pointless. Why instances of level 15 and 25? Why all the sidequests? Why reforming levequest system? Why are you going to level up "normally" if you can powerlevel?

And this is to say nothing of the potential boon RMT likely see. If this game actually does take off and become successful, this is the perfect opportunity for them to plan ahead and stockpile level 50s with very little work or effort involved, SE might as well have given them a machine that prints money.

[zaviermhigo]

I love how everyone who is brand new is rushing to 50 now, so they can do the ifrit fight, and the dungeons, and maybe kill the nm in the stronghold. But these aren't really that many things, to think people are rushing to 50 for like 5 things of content at max is ridiculous. I can almost understand Yoshi-P saying "hey you spent that time pling your friend, that's time and effort spent" but its the mentality of the players who are brand new, to be in a total rush to get to 50 for limited content. Content that seems for jobs most likely, and rushed out due to wah wah-ers, and now we struggle with classes, and beef ourselves up with materia. Once jobs come out those effing places will be a joke. But those people will just be spamming every class to 50 then in hopes they are the most useful person ever before jobs come out. What they should be doing is effing crafting so their high level buddies don't have to completely twink them.

[Pence]

The above post by Issac made me realise how bad this is.

Why do we even have levels? (Re: Travestys post).

From what I gather Yoishi wants friends to play endgame together instantly; but if you don't know anyone that plays you have to work for the right to participate in endgame.

Why bother working on content under 50 if you're treating it as junk? Awesome, you added a Lv.15 dugeon that become obsolete the moment you added it. Hello XIV Cataclysm. (Not getting the reference? WoWs latest expansion seems like they spent the majority of the time re-developing low level'd zones than endgame content where they should have been focused. In the end they delivered 30% in the expansion you purchased, and 70% in updates of old outdated areas)

As far as I'm concerned this is just a dirty 'We're too lazy and underfunded to add level sync'. (Not a complete XI fanboy, I played WoW longer, and other games even longer). Level sync in all its forms, both the anoying 'buy outdated Lv.30 gear to participate in Promies' and 'Gear syncs with you', was one of the defining features of XI to me. It allowed content to remain current and challenging while giving low-leveled players access.

When I first got to 30 in XI I seen all these cool looking players at 75. I wanted to earn the right to be one of them, I wanted to slave away so people could look up at me. I knew who was the shiz in the job, and who was just shiz. I had mentors and I waved at other main-healing non-summoning summoners and eventually became the one who mentored them in soloing bombs (Because sadly it was better EXP).

It may seem like I'm going on a tangent but it's all relevant. The partying, the grind, the communication of it all gives a sense of community. It gave you an identity...you stuck it out for months leveling a healing job...that says something about you...the Samurais named Sephirothxxx will deny it, but it gave identity.

TL;DR, nerf the exp already.

[Blarp]

The above post by Issac made me realise how bad this is.

Why do we even have levels? (Re: Travestys post).

From what I gather Yoishi wants friends to play endgame together instantly; but if you don't know anyone that plays you have to work for the right to participate in endgame.

Why bother working on content under 50 if you're treating it as junk? Awesome, you added a Lv.15 dugeon that become obsolete the moment you added it. Hello XIV Cataclysm. (Not getting the reference? WoWs latest expansion seems like they spent the majority of the time re-developing low level'd zones than endgame content where they should have been focused. In the end they delivered 30% in the expansion you purchased, and 70% in updates of old outdated areas)

As far as I'm concerned this is just a dirty 'We're too lazy and underfunded to add level sync'. (Not a complete XI fanboy, I played WoW longer, and other games even longer). Level sync in all its forms, both the anoying 'buy outdated Lv.30 gear to participate in Promies' and 'Gear syncs with you', was one of the defining features of XI to me. It allowed content to remain current and challenging while giving low-leveled players access.

When I first got to 30 in XI I seen all these cool looking players at 75. I wanted to earn the right to be one of them, I wanted to slave away so people could look up at me. I knew who was the shiz in the job, and who was just shiz. I had mentors and I waved at other main-healing non-summoning summoners and eventually became the one who mentored them in soloing bombs (Because sadly it was better EXP).

It may seem like I'm going on a tangent but it's all relevant. The partying, the grind, the communication of it all gives a sense of community. It gave you an identity...you stuck it out for months leveling a healing job...that says something about you...the Samurais named Sephirothxxx will deny it, but it gave identity.

TL;DR, nerf the exp already.

I generally agree with what you've said, but people need to stop thinking it's 2003 and realize that the paradigm for MMO's has shifted dramatically since that time. The core demographic of MMO players has changed from the guys playing games like EQ1, and it's spiritual successor FFXI, to people playing games which more closely represent the Blizzard model. I'm not saying it's better, but that's just the market environment right now. Niche games exist, and for good reason, but I don't think SE was or is trying to capture that market. They essentially proved that they want a piece of the "casual gamer pie" when they stated they were going after World of Warcraft (an arrogant if not hilarious comment.)

If SE still wants to turn this game into more than a niche game, which I think they do, then they need to have design goals and philosophies to satisfy both crowds. The farther along we get, the more I think that's exactly what they're doing. For example, two versions of Ifrit; two versions of Darkhold, and now we come to the new XP system. It should be slowed down, but if you're expecting a game like FFXI or EQ1 where it takes you a year to hit level cap, I think you will be disappointed in the final outcome. Leveling needs to remain relevant, but I think people advocating for XI style leveling need to take off the rose tinted glasses. I don't want people getting to 50 in a week, but I also don't think it should take months to hit level cap. Why must we have an extreme one way or the other?

[Preypacer]

If SE still wants to turn this game into more than a niche game, which I think they do, then they need to have design goals and philosophies to satisfy both crowds. The farther along we get, the more I think that's exactly what they're doing. For example, two versions of Ifrit; two versions of Darkhold, and now we come to the new XP system. It should be slowed down, but if you're expecting a game like FFXI or EQ1 where it takes you a year to hit level cap, I think you will be disappointed in the final outcome. Leveling needs to remain relevant, but I think people advocating for XI style leveling need to take off the rose tinted glasses. I don't want people getting to 50 in a week, but I also don't think it should take months to hit level cap. Why must we have an extreme one way or the other?

Here's the thing about those "extremes" though... you can't place XI in the same category as other MMORPGs.

Why?

Well, for one, character development in XI is/was much more multi-dimensional than it is in many other MMOs - especially those from the WoW mold.

For one example, in XI players were not working on one single job to level cap. They were typically working on several. They'd have a few main jobs, some sub-jobs etc. Getting a job to 75 was only part of a larger goal of developing you character.. not the goal, as many see it in other, more recent MMOs. Arguably, if players did stick to one job - never unlock an advanced job, never work on support jobs, etc.. and could actually pull it off... they'd have gotten to 75 a lot faster.

Of course you also had the Genkai quests which required players to complete quests to unlock the level cap for their first job. That took time.

Second, there were myriad goals along the way that players were working on, and each of those goals took time. In many newer MMOs (those from the WoW mold in particular) side activities, up to end game anyway, are typically after-thoughts, minor "filler". They're very much "jump in and jump out" affairs.

In XI? Not so. Every single side-activity they implemented was an entire system unto itself, and many of them were very important milestones to be accomplished. Storyline missions brought about some awesome experiences and some really nice loot to go with it.

Anyone here who played FFXI for some time and leveled at least one job to 75, but likely more than that... How many things did you do on your way up there? Was all your time spent in an xp party, or soloing on whatever? I will bet real money it wasn't. Because there were myriad other things you could do to develop and improve your character in that game besides xp'ing and getting better gear. Some of the things were required... some were optional, but very beneficial.

Point is, the average player in FFXI typically had a quite long "to-do" list of goals they'd set, activities they wanted to do, things they wanted/needed to do. On that list, "getting to level 75" was only one of them, and not even the most "meaningful", because level 75 was not "the end of the road" in XI. There were up to 19 other jobs left to work on before you could truly say you'd "capped your character". 'course you could choose not to level some of them, but that was a personal choice, not a game limitation.

Everything that was meaningful or beneficial to your character in FFXI had to be earned, and earning them was often not a trivial task.

Other than getting better gear, there really isn't a whole lot else for players to focus on in newer MMOs. It's grinding out quests, doing only the instances/dungeons that yield the best gear for the PvE minded; it's grinding PvP arenas for the points to get better gear for the PvP folks. And at the end of the road.. it's "end game raiding". And that's really it. Any other side-activities are so inconsequential as to be considered "pointless" by a lot of players. Newer MMORPGs can be very wide in terms of quantity of content, but they're rather shallow in terms of variety.

So.. the point is.. Though it could be said that XI has/had a very slow leveling curve... That time was very full with a large variety of content.It wasn't the hollow/pointless "grind" many people complain of in other MMOs. Of course, there are those who did nothing but grind in XI and would say it was... but they limited themselves, no one did it to them.
People were always working on something, working toward some goal, striving toward some milestone that either the game presented, or they'd set for them self.

[Pence]

I know I came off as some hardcore 2003 lover, I loved it then. I was 15? 14? God knows. But now I have a full time job, UNI, volunteer positions that I'm forced into by my partner, and Dead Island...I'm as casual as they get.

Somewhere around Aht Urghan is a good leveling pace. It wasn't as slow as COP, but not as fast as Abyssea. Dedicated you could easily do it in a couple of weeks. I think a reasonable time frame for hitting 50 should be 2-3 months.

If anything I would love it to be a World of XI. Both have features I miss when playing the other. From what I've read Yoishi wouldn't it being such.

Edit in reply to Preypacer: I still don't understand why job switching on 1 char. hasn't caught on? Do any other games even do it? I've yet to find one...

[Issac]

Here's the thing about those "extremes" though... you can't place XI in the same category as other MMORPGs.

Why?

Well, for one, character development in XI is/was much more multi-dimensional than it is in many other MMOs - especially those from the WoW mold.

For one example, in XI players were not working on one single job to level cap. They were typically working on several. They'd have a few main jobs, some sub-jobs etc. Getting a job to 75 was only part of a larger goal of developing you character.. not the goal, as many see it in other, more recent MMOs. Arguably, if players did stick to one job - never unlock an advanced job, never work on support jobs, etc.. and could actually pull it off... they'd have gotten to 75 a lot faster.

Of course you also had the Genkai quests which required players to complete quests to unlock the level cap for their first job. That took time.

Second, there were myriad goals along the way that players were working on, and each of those goals took time. In many newer MMOs (those from the WoW mold in particular) side activities, up to end game anyway, are typically after-thoughts, minor "filler". They're very much "jump in and jump out" affairs.

In XI? Not so. Every single side-activity they implemented was an entire system unto itself, and many of them were very important milestones to be accomplished. Storyline missions brought about some awesome experiences and some really nice loot to go with it.

Anyone here who played FFXI for some time and leveled at least one job to 75, but likely more than that... How many things did you do on your way up there? Was all your time spent in an xp party, or soloing on whatever? I will bet real money it wasn't. Because there were myriad other things you could do to develop and improve your character in that game besides xp'ing and getting better gear. Some of the things were required... some were optional, but very beneficial.

Point is, the average player in FFXI typically had a quite long "to-do" list of goals they'd set, activities they wanted to do, things they wanted/needed to do. On that list, "getting to level 75" was only one of them, and not even the most "meaningful", because level 75 was not "the end of the road" in XI. There were up to 19 other jobs left to work on before you could truly say you'd "capped your character". 'course you could choose not to level some of them, but that was a personal choice, not a game limitation.

Everything that was meaningful or beneficial to your character in FFXI had to be earned, and earning them was often not a trivial task.

Other than getting better gear, there really isn't a whole lot else for players to focus on in newer MMOs. It's grinding out quests, doing only the instances/dungeons that yield the best gear for the PvE minded; it's grinding PvP arenas for the points to get better gear for the PvP folks. And at the end of the road.. it's "end game raiding". And that's really it. Any other side-activities are so inconsequential as to be considered "pointless" by a lot of players. Newer MMORPGs can be very wide in terms of quantity of content, but they're rather shallow in terms of variety.

So.. the point is.. Though it could be said that XI has/had a very slow leveling curve... That time was very full with a large variety of content.It wasn't the hollow/pointless "grind" many people complain of in other MMOs. Of course, there are those who did nothing but grind in XI and would say it was... but they limited themselves, no one did it to them.
People were always working on something, working toward some goal, striving toward some milestone that either the game presented, or they'd set for them self.

I think I just cried from nostalgia.
God I miss that... Someone, please bring that kind of gameplay back. XI is a wreck now.

[Vaer]

This type of "power leveling" is silly if you compare it with the progression you get if you actually play the game legitly. That's my only problem with it. All you people rat on all the people that want soloing and how they want it to give more exp yet many support this. Might as well up the exp across the board if you are going to allow this type of speed to the top. You say "How does power leveling affect you?" Well, "How does soloing affect you?"

Easiest way to fix this is to put a cap on the exp you get, something like 200-300, which I thought they were going to do. You could still power level, it would just take.. a lot longer.

XI was awesome from a masochistic point of view. The low drop rates were disheartening, but made it just that more satisfying when you got it. Plus, not everyone was wearing the same thing, those who put the effort into it got to wear it, while the people who put less effort/no effort didn't. (Until all the changes and watering down) There would be times you would just be completely pissed off, but you just couldn't look away and began playing again the next day. Early on in the game, the curve pretty much weeded out the lazy people. XI soloing was a lot, a lot harder than this game.

But the masochistic formula for MMOs has passed, we are now stuck with instant gratification and spoon fed rewards. R.I.P FFXI 3/22~23/2010

[Blarp]

Here's the thing about those "extremes" though... you can't place XI in the same category as other MMORPGs.

Why?

Well, for one, character development in XI is/was much more multi-dimensional than it is in many other MMOs - especially those from the WoW mold.

Second, there were myriad goals along the way that players were working on, and each of those goals took time. In many
So.. the point is.. Though it could be said that XI has/had a very slow leveling curve... That time was very full with a large variety of content.It wasn't the hollow/pointless "grind" many people complain of in other MMOs. Of course, there are those who did nothing but grind in XI and would say it was... but they limited themselves, no one did it to them.
People were always working on something, working toward some goal, striving toward some milestone that either the game presented, or they'd set for them self.

The simple fact is that character progression, regardless of depth, is the most fundamental part of an MMO. Everything in FFXI was tied to leveling just as everything in a game like World of Warcraft is tied to it. Your goals in FFXI may have been much broader and varied, but they still revolved around your level. The goals and progression are only different in scope.