Difficulty of ALC potions

[Mindy_Macready]

You CAN churn them out (the "en masse" part will come when yields are changed), they just won't be 15 second Crafts that 100% HQ every single time.

And that's the problem. These things are a time sink to craft stacks while guaranteeing quality, and it's ridiculous compared to the time they're consumed.

In HW Crafting has seen the biggest changes and seems to be the single thing that SE isn't willing to copy-paste their 2.0 routine onto and because of this we CANNOT keep using 2.0 as a basis of what to expect.

We can point to 2.x as a reason ALC worked. There's no sense in ignoring history "just because." D-pots will probably become the next x-pots unless the new gear allows us to craft max-pots without resorting to hasty and maker's mark to ensure quality.

[Sollux]

And that's the problem. These things are a time sink to craft stacks while guaranteeing quality, and it's ridiculous compared to the time they're consumed.

A problem that will be resolved when they increase yields and the time taken to Craft a stack is reduced to a third of what it is now.

We can point to 2.x as a reason ALC worked. There's no sense in ignoring history "just because."

I'm not saying we should ignore history, I'm saying we can't just assume something is going to happen based off of past trends and ONLY plan for that scenario. If you plan for both possibilities (following past trends/mixing it up) you're going to be in a much more flexible position than if you only prepared for 1 outcome.

This isn't "just because" either. Since the very start of 3.0 Crafting Endgame has changed DRASTICALLY compared to 2.x (Specialist skills, the scrip system, Specialist recipes, etc.) and it's becoming less and less likely that they'll revert back to the trends we saw in the past. Yes, it's possible they'll repeat something, and I account for that when I prepare for a new patch, but I also keep in mind that nothing is guaranteed until patch notes are released.

D-pots will probably become the next x-pots unless the new gear allows us to craft max-pots without resorting to hasty and maker's mark to ensure quality.

Again, Maker's Mark is not required to ensure quality, and since max pots are still an Endgame recipe I doubt we'll be getting away from Hasty Touch any time soon.

You're probably right, drac pots will likely become the new x-pot, but I guarantee you if the only change was an increase in yields the max pot market would pick up DRAMATICALLY. Right now there's a huge gap between effort vs reward, but reduce that gap to a third and players will be much more willing to Craft/buy them regardless of the timesink.

[Mindy_Macready]

A problem that will be resolved when they increase yields and the time taken to Craft a stack is reduced to a third of what it is now.

I doubt it. Max-pots will be ignored in favor of the potions that can be mass-produced easily.

I'm not saying we should ignore history, I'm saying we can't just assume something is going to happen based off of past trends and ONLY plan for that scenario.

I never said I'm assuming it will happen. I'm saying it WORKED when it was that way, and they should consider moving back to that.

This isn't "just because" either. Since the very start of 3.0 Crafting Endgame has changed DRASTICALLY compared to 2.x (Specialist skills, the scrip system, Specialist recipes, etc.)

Crafted gear regained its glory after they realized how stupid those changes were. They do know when to move back when it makes sense.

Again, Maker's Mark is not required to ensure quality, and since max pots are still an Endgame recipe I doubt we'll be getting away from Hasty Touch any time soon.

Maker's mark is the best option for durability. And x-pots were end-game pots as well.

[Sollux]

I doubt it. Max-pots will be ignored in favor of the potions that can be mass-produced easily.

Not for those looking to push the current or upcoming tier.

I never said I'm assuming it will happen. I'm saying it WORKED when it was that way, and they should consider moving back to that.

There's nothing saying it won't work when yields are changed, and there is absolutely no way they can "backtrack" on recipe difficulty, nor should they. Endgame recipes SHOULD be difficult to Craft and even harder to guarantee HQ.

Crafted gear regained its glory after they realized how stupid those changes were. They do know when to move back when it makes sense.

They didn't "move back" on anything gear-wise except scrip yields and Favor mats. Since Crafting Endgame can't be achieved in a single day like in 2.x they paced out the increase on recipe difficulty to give players time to get the gear they needed as new recipes were released.

Maker's mark is the best option for durability. And x-pots were end-game pots as well.

Best option? Yes. Necessary? No. Endgame is supposed to be challenging and rewarding. The only thing that was challenging with 2.x Crafting was the challenge to the size of your wallet, and your reward was a market already saturated with sellers because the barrier to entry was way too low. 3.x Crafting actually rewarded those who took the time to gear up in 3.2 because while the size of your wallet can still determine the speed in which you reach Endgame it's MUCH harder (if not impossible) to find enough gear pieces/mats to gear out the classes you want, and that's not a bad thing.

[Mindy_Macready]

Crafted 180 raid gear was not viable without an extremely large wallet, compared to the Eikon sets. That's not really an arguable point; they moved away from requiring mats that ate into crafting progression because it was a stupid idea.

Once they moved back to the system where people bought mats with tomes, raiders suddenly had an old income source back, and were able to lessen the costs of crafting after a period of time.

No offense, but if you weren't around when X-pots were introduced then how can you say 2.x crafting offered no challenge? The only time it was ever "easy" was before 2.2, when everybody was still learning how to play, and rotations were being theorycrafted, and required at least fully-melded pats to craft guaranteed 100% from NQ. By the time 2.2 hit with 3-stars, the "ease" disappeared, especially when dealing with mainhand tool upgrades in future patches.

Compare that to HW, where someone entering late would need even a bigger wallet relative to the economy than back then.

[Cleanse]

You're really not making any sense... You say the pots are too difficult and use examples in ARR. Then you state that after a patch came (in ARR) that awarded higher level gear, it became easy. We're not done yet and 3.3 is soonTM.

3.3 will make things easy for you.

Edit: As far as time they take to make vs the duration they last... using the best pots on learning is not smart. So a handful per night is more reasonable once things get ironed out stratwise. Having a stack of some draconic/xpots in place of those to practice 'rotations' is what most people do. So there's not a big need outside of early raid progression where you would need to churn these out by the boatload.

[Sollux]

Crafted 180 raid gear was not viable without an extremely large wallet, compared to the Eikon sets. That's not really an arguable point; they moved away from requiring mats that ate into crafting progression because it was a stupid idea.

Once they moved back to the system where people bought mats with tomes, raiders suddenly had an old income source back, and were able to lessen the costs of crafting after a period of time.

You're absolutely right, but this didn't have a huge effect on Crafting progression itself (gear-wise anyways) because even though Crafting the Combat gear would set you back a couple Red Scrip Tokens it was generally understood that it was a waste of time and gil. Don't get me wrong, I agree things were generally abysmal for Crafting from 3.0-3.2, but those who stuck with it and focused on progression were eventually rewarded in 3.2 while those who didn't were left behind.

No offense, but if you weren't around when X-pots were introduced then how can you say 2.x crafting offered no challenge? The only time it was ever "easy" was before 2.2, when everybody was still learning how to play, and rotations were being theorycrafted, and required at least fully-melded pats to craft guaranteed 100% from NQ. By the time 2.2 hit with 3-stars, the "ease" disappeared, especially when dealing with mainhand tool upgrades in future patches.

Again you're absolutely right. I can't effectively judge how difficult most 2.x recipes were on release, I can only speak on my experiences and your own explanations. I returned to the game in late 2.x, and within a single week and a 2m gil investment I had a pentamelded Crafting set and I was Crafting 3&4-Star recipes. I may have come back at a time when prices were cheap, but it doesn't change the fact that I was gone for a year and a half and was back to Crafting Endgame recipes within a week.

Compare that to HW, where someone entering late would need even a bigger wallet relative to the economy than back then.

I'll likely catch flak for this, but this is a good thing. A player should not be able to come back after a long hiatus and immediately be able to compete with players who have spent months gearing their classes. Sure, it's still possible to gear up 3 classes in a week, but like you said it's going to take a much larger investment of time and/or gil. Having a higher barrier to entry means those willing to put in the work/gil will reap the benefits for longer and the market in general will be healthier because of the reduced rate of saturation.

That being said, it's not impossible to complete a full i170 set in a week by spending little to no gil, but those who are willing to put in the effort will find a less competitive, more profitable market. Being passionate about Crafting, either through love of the system or potential profit, should be rewarded and while it took WAY longer than it should have we finally saw the fruits of our labor when 3-Star recipes were released and we already had the stats required to make them. Plain and simple, Crafting Endgame is more challenging to enter now than it was in 2.x, and that's not a bad thing.

[Mindy_Macready]

You're really not making any sense... You say the pots are too difficult and use examples in ARR. Then you state that after a patch came (in ARR) that awarded higher level gear, it became easy. We're not done yet and 3.3 is soonTM.

2-star 100% rotations with a fully-melded pats set, or partially-melded ALC AF set, existed by the time 3-stars were introduced. X-pots remained 2-stars, even when introduced in the same patch that 3-star recipes were introduced.

I'll likely catch flak for this, but this is a good thing. A player should not be able to come back after a long hiatus and immediately be able to compete with players who have spent months gearing their classes.

I think there's gotta be a decent level between "not immediately catching up" and "needing at least a few months to catch up", and hopefully the next patch addresses this (probably via uncapped red scrips).

[Sollux]

I think there's gotta be a decent level between "not immediately catching up" and "needing at least a few months to catch up", and hopefully the next patch addresses this (probably via uncapped red scrips).

There is. Each week you can earn enough Scrips to trade for 9 Red Crafting Scrip Tokens. Each of those tokens can be exchanged for mats that are used to create up to 3 2-Star sub mats per Token for a total of up to 27 2-Star sub mats obtainable per week. Crafting a full set of i170 gear (MH OH included but minus Accessories and Belt) requires 25 2-Star sub mats, and if we include accessories (a 1-time Craft) the total comes to 35 2-Star sub mats for a complete i170 set. This means that in a little over a week you could potentially have a full i170 Crafting set completed, Accessories included, and from then on you can complete a set for each class every week.

No, I'm not even considering i180 gear as a "catch up" option, and I know I didn't even mention the difficulty/time-sink required to buy/farm Favor items or materia, but that difficulty is the entire point. You still have the potential to gear up a class extremely quickly, however you're going to have to invest a lot of time and/or gil to do so, and that wall is what is STILL rewarding those who were persistent enough to stay on top of their gearing either through weekly capping and i180 gear or farming/buying i170 gear. We're approaching 3.3 and i220 gear still has a decent profit margin (though sales have finally started to slow).

Crafting actually has an Endgame that can't be reached without investing a decent amount of time and/or gil and that's a good thing.

[Alahra]

Crafting actually has an Endgame that can't be reached without investing a decent amount of time and/or gil and that's a good thing.

The difficulty of catching up for crafters is great for people that are already there. It's not a good thing for people who aren't.

If the "catch-up" process becomes too onerous, it can lead to stagnation on lower population servers that don't already have high end crafters/gatherers. On servers that do have a number of them (Diabolos being one), the economy can become lopsided, as was the case in 3.0 for some time here. The only folks who could afford to pay the prices for the i170 gear were those who were already at the highest echelons of player wealth—the top crafters were essentially only selling to each other, causing prices to rise.

I'm currently of the mind that the requirements to catch up a little bit too stringent—but not by much. 3.3 will likely swing things back toward where they need to be just a little bit. We'll have to see. Very little of SE's gameplan for DoH/DoL has been predictable from 3.0 onward.