Something's Better than Nothing...

[Nalien]

But all this attitude... It's like you'd rather have nothing over something.

I'd rather have something that is polished, than something which is OK and eventually phased out... I'd rather have had Secure, heck even Slaughter (which I loathed) improved upon, than have gotten Seize, and I loved Seize. Instead, Secure and Slaughter are dead... Not because of the community, but because SE would rather churn out new modes than create solid foundations... I don't want nothing, I want what we have to be focused on, rather than ignored and replaced...

I actually don't worry about Feast at all... I don't care for the leaderboard all that much, but it has exclusive, seasonal rewards, it's never going to die IMO. People can complain all they like, but they're always going to go after those rewards, and if it does suffer in anyway, that's just going to make those rewards easier to obtain which will just result in people flocking back to it and balancing things out... Feast is fine... Shatter is going to suffer though, they're releasing it in 3.3, so any PvE focused players will be busy with PvE and any PvP focused players are likely still going to be busy with the Feasts first season... That's just really bad planning, and (until otherwise stated) I'm assuming it will have the same Grand Company system in place that will further compound long queues... As something for newer players, I think Shatter could be great, Frontlines has less at stake being the more casual PvP and I never recall much hostility from it... No more than can be found in the Duty Finder in general, at least... Biggest issue was people not interested in the slightest in PvP ruining it for everyone by farming tomestones there... It's a really good place to get a feel for PvP in this game, it has issues though, and unfortunately SE ignores them...

Again, I think SE is more to blame here than us, they tend to ignore complaints and suggestions... One thing I (and others) have asked for repeatably that I think would be really great for PvP is Duels. I think they'd be a great way to unwind, settle disputes, and even practice, because you simply cannot practice PvP against a dummy, especially for important roles like healer... It would simply be a great addition to PvP, should be simple to implement too... Instead we're getting another Frontlines, which will go through the exact same motions all Frontlines have gone through because SE is being stupidly stubborn with this... This really isn't the communities fault, a lack of respect is not what killed Secure, Slaughter, and Seize, it's SEs inability to take what is a small playerbase and plan accordingly. I mean we definitely should be more respectful, but I don't think that's the issue... I'll acknowledge that it wouldn't be easy to keep all modes active, but I certainly don't think it's impossible, and has SE even been trying? Frontlines Roulette was their only attempt...

Frontlines is the casual PvP mode, and we definitely need that to help grow PvP in this game, but I really don't think SE is doing enough to keep it afloat... A new map to rekindle interest will (hopefully) do just that, but unless they fix the root of the problem, we're going to keep having the same issues... We can be as respectful as damn well possible, but that isn't going to make people queue for Frontlines... The queues are too annoying and the motivation to return to the mode just isn't there... It suffers from negative feedback; You get bored of it for whatever reason, stop queuing and that compounds some of the issues that lead to people leaving. If you get bored because its repetitive to do the same mode over and over, queues will take longer as less people are queuing, and people will get tired of waiting and not bother. That results in less people queuing and longer queues, which spirals the game into oblivion... Casual PvP dies out, new/casual players only option is to jump into the competitive scene which is a problem... Inexperienced players in a competitive scene isn't great, and experienced players reactions to such players, while somewhat understandable (at least IMO), ultimately turns new players away and kills growth...

Best way I can think of to see Frontlines, and thus casual PvP thrive? Make Wolves' Den truly competitive. Right now with the leaderboard, Feast definitely fills that role, would be nice to have some variety in game mode, but the only active PvP at the moment is definitely competitive... Problem is, why would you do anything else? Feast is also rewarding PvP EXP, Wolf Marks and tomestones, and I really don't think it needs to... If you're into that competitive scene, the rating is all the reward you need... If we instead made it so Frontlines was the source of Wolf Marks and tomestones (perhaps PvP EXP? I'm iffy on that idea, kinda iffy on the whole thing actually, perhaps just far better Wolf Marks farming from Frontlines? IDK), and Wolf Marks perhaps have a solid purpose... Then we'd have a situation where Frontlines is a good place for beginners and casuals to get a feel for PvP, but people focused on the competitive scene also keep it afloat because they need Wolf Marks for whatever reason.

Then just change the Frontlines Roulette to always have a Wolf Marks bonus and you're set. Frontlines becomes a place for beginners to "git gud", while being sustained by the fact that veterans need it to farm Wolf Marks between climbing the leaderboard. The Roulette would provide more than once a day variety. The Wolves' Den would probably still be full of toxicity, but it would be between people who can (hopefully) handle it, rather than a brand new player walking into it...


This got kinda long... And ramble-y... I agree we should be more respectful, but SE really needs to do more than just plop out a new map every few months... It's really just a gross waste of development time to release modes and kill them off like this... The development time that went into Shatter could have done so much better for the PvP community...

[JazzofEtro]

-Snip-

I can't say you're wrong, but I do believe that we would have double the amount of players for feast by now. The amount of players that are not playing The Feast right now isn't because of mechanics. But because of what was thrown at them, by us the current PvP players. I mean... I couldn't get a game in 4v4 solo q right now because there just isn't enough people doing it. When it came out it was popping instantly no matter the time of day. I think we could always have it like that if more people enjoyed it. Fair enough complain about the game modes and stuff... but my overall message was to welcome the beginners because not matter how you look at it. We scared A LOT of them away and we are in no shape to be scaring players away when we do need em. Feast is not going to survive because of the rewards alone. I can tell you that now, it will survive if more people enjoy it though. And if we had a "Perfect" or "Polished" Feast, the population would stay the same. I would say only the true hardcore cares about them things and let me tell you... there is not enough hardcore types here to keep a competitive playlist alive and fresh alone. Just look at our Light party queues.

I guess because I'm in touch with both the hardcore, softcore and PVE players here.

Hardcore: Players that will play anyone and everyone for a serious fight under whatever conditions are set.
Say... "There just isn't enough players playing right now to make it fun. No one wants to really do Light party too."

Softcore: Players that are into PVP, but are fighting mainly for rewards and placement on the leaderboards.
Say... "They need to fix matchmaking, nerf this, nerf that. Make this better blah blah"

PVE Players: Players that well... make up for more that 80%+ of the FFXIV community. Easy! That may end up trying The Feast.
Say... "I tried it but everyone was so rude. I really don't want to go back there."

Honestly the last is what will make up a huge about of our population. And with this new group I've started I can say that my words do hold a lot of truth. So many people are interested in PVP but scared to try it and when they finally do...

One thing one of them said to me was. "The PVP players just seem so divided amongst themselves." I just kinda... stood there and thought. "How can you see that?! ^^; "

In a game where nothing really is on the line, we sure give the impression that we're playing in the big leagues.

EDIT: If 76MINS+ for The Feast Solo queue as a Silver Rank Does not sound insane, no matter the time of day. I don't know what does... and people are asking to make it stricter? Lord... I can't wait for Shatter to drop.

[kensatsu]

i never get rude in the feast, i don't want because its useless,
the player is not gonna to progress because i am rude with him, he will just stop queuing pvp.
even after a famous loose streak, i got some rage from it but i keep it for me XD.
i think like you the community is too small to afford to be toxic.

i dunno what fighting game you got to play, i don't think guys have no respect on the fighting game i got to play but all fighting games have not the same community.

[kensatsu]

and you are right, in chaos data center, queueing is long now...
the feast i half dead already

[Nalien]

and you are right, in chaos data center, queueing is long now...
the feast i half dead already

I was getting 5m queues this time yesterday lol, but yeah... Today hasn't been great... I imagine people are dropping out with hopes of maintaining their current position in the top 100 by doing nothing... Shame SE didn't implement a counter for that... We have a system that forces people into their houses or risk losing them, but we have nothing to keep people queuing Feast after they hit ~1,000 rating...

PVE Players: Players that well... make up for more that 80%+ of the FFXIV community. Easy! That may end up trying The Feast.
Say... "I tried it but everyone was so rude. I really don't want to go back there."

Honestly the last is what will make up a huge about of our population. And with this new group I've started I can say that my words do hold a lot of truth. So many people are interested in PVP but scared to try it and when they finally do...

This is why I'd focus on making Frontlines sustainable, rather than letting it wax and wane as it currently does... Frontlines is very much the casual scene, it was always designed as such, and it's always been such. I recall very little hostility in Frontlines and much more joking... That's the perfect environment to grow the PvP community, for people new to it to get a feel for PvP. That growth, hopefully, would translate into more people entering the competitive scene.

The only problem with that, is how do you maintain Frontlines? I have no reason to queue for Frontlines, Feast offers all the rewards I could need (and I care about none of them save the rating, currently). If the "hardcore" PvPers have no reason to do Frontlines, then the queues are not going to be sustainable, passing interest from PvE players will be wasted as the queues will be long without that core PvP playerbase maintaining Frontline queues. Despite the small population, SE kinda needs to maintain Frontlines and Wolves' Den... Without new players, Wolves' Den wont grow, but with no reason for veteran plays to touch the casual mode, there is no where for new players to safely grow... We can try and be nicer in Wolves' Den, but then Wolves' Den stops being the "hardcore" playground it was always meant to be... It's meant to be the competitive scene, but how can you call it such when "What is Purify?" is a common question there?

Perhaps the game simply can't handle a competitive scene for PvP, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion... I'd say PvP is more popular than it once was, and I'd blame that on Frontlines, despite its flaws it has done its job... If SE could just stop being stubborn and address its flaws, it might do its job well enough to sustain a competitive scene... I mean Frontlines is mostly dead, but those short bursts of interest from a new mode have grown the community somewhat IMO... Imagine if it was constantly active and readily accessible? How many must have concluded PvP is dead in this game when they saw 30m+ wait times on Frontlines...

[Zojha]

The amount of players that are not playing The Feast right now isn't because of mechanics.

I wouldn't put it that bluntly. I personally quit 4vs4 because just about every game, I was held in CC lock by a white mage and a paladin while one of my DPS got bursted with me unable to do anything. I only have "one" purify and that simply didn't suffice. And after that you can only retreat and wait for your CC immunity to wear off as well as the inevitable LBs by the other team.

Personally, I never actually encountered much hostility during PvP - most of the time, there were even commendations to be had -, but I quit 4vs4 after only about 50 matches due to the above. Went to 8vs8, whose queues became so long that I stopped bothering as well.

Now, that's all anecdotal of course, but I like to think the gameplay is also part of the reason why feast is not overly popular.

[JazzofEtro]

I wouldn't put it that bluntly. I personally quit 4vs4 because just about every game, I was held in CC lock by a white mage and a paladin while one of my DPS got bursted with me unable to do anything. I only have "one" purify and that simply didn't suffice. And after that you can only retreat and wait for your CC immunity to wear off as well as the inevitable LBs by the other team.

Personally, I never actually encountered much hostility during PvP - most of the time, there were even commendations to be had -, but I quit 4vs4 after only about 50 matches due to the above. Went to 8vs8, whose queues became so long that I stopped bothering as well.

Now, that's all anecdotal of course, but I like to think the gameplay is also part of the reason why feast is not overly popular.

You should totally come play with us then. 4 purifies per team every 90 seconds is more than enough to cover sleeps and stun locks. And you shouldn't be able to perfectly cover sleeps and stuns throughout a whole match too. This is why the resist reset is 60sec. But I'm not here to prove a point or anything I'm totally not bothered at all about this stuff.

But hey you should totally come play with us, I see you're on Balmung. We are starting to make statics and set goals and objectives for our teams. I'm going to spend the rest of my time playing and looking for people who want to play too. I'd love for you to join. If you're not interested.

Have a nice day. : )