SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[DWolfwood]

it doesn't matter how many tank jobs you add, there won't be more ppl playing as tanks. it's not going to affect DF ques, at all...

I'm guessing you don't remember DF when 3.0 launched. It was nearly impossible for tanks to queue, and DPS had the easiest time for awhile.

A better tank option would be something like Viking with a shield and hammer that focuses more on block strength and lightning attacks, especially since Mjolnir as a relic weapon would make it ideal.

This idea seems like something WoW does with their PLDs and I can't say it sounds interesting. I would rather see Viking as a 2h Greathammer DPS job stone applied to WAR, personally. Which probably won't happen considering their take on SCH/SMN, but hey this is just my opinion on the matter.

Putting three classes on "of Casting" would even it out with what we have on "of Healing" and "of Fending."

3 tanks or 3 healers are almost never in competition for loot in raid. Thus, they could accommodate a limitless number of VIT/STR tanks and MND healers.

...in Rift... ...an ability called Arcane Ward that functions like the tank stances... "enables Block. Causes Block to derive from the Mage's Intelligence. Increases Base Health by 25%, Resistances by 35%, and Armor by 150%. Increases threat generation by 300%. Reduces damage and healing done by 20%. " They could very easily add a buff like this without changing current itemization.

Let's assume they take the time to balance this, and they consider every minute detail, like how INT potions affect this, the party buff, and all the mechanics present in the game already that affect INT. Would you really want them to add this new "mage tank," presumably BLU or RDM, which use swords and possibly shields as well, rather than just add better spell utility to PLD/DRK? What is the fascination with a tank that uses INT for damage? If RDM and BLU use swords, does this mean their swords' damage is affected by INT too? If they add this, all of a sudden we got 3 sword wielding tanks, 2 possibly with shields, that all use magic as well. So much for adding something new.

How would a RDM/BLU even offer anything different? Different combo combinations? Give me an idea seriously, because pretty much every caster's mechanics revolve around MP management which is exactly what DRK is, so it sounds like you just want different animations and gimmicks. I really don't see how people miss this redundancy and not favor simply adding more utility to PLD's CNJ abilities since they already have them, and giving PLD/DRK more magic spells here and there. It would be easier for the dev team, and also give us more distinction between PLD and DRK, which is what people greatly complain about in the first place. Alternatively, would people really rather keep PLD/DRK how they are, just to facilitate an environment where a RDM/BLU tank might be considered "different?"

If we're gonna do a true "caster" tank, I think it needs to be something completely new and different, and use their hands or some kind of psychic power. Maybe Necromancer, but that really wouldn't make sense to me. Just doesn't look like a tank, but the caster-tank doesn't really make sense to me beyond PLD anyways, so whatever.

I dont have paladin up much but to my knowledge its only MP use is Flash up to 50?

Sorta. Their oaths are spells, and they also had Stoneskin, Protect, Cure, and Raise available to them. Their CNJ spells were, and still are, pretty much useless, but I do think they should do something with that. PLD is the only true caster-based tank I can envision making it work easily considering all they'd have to do is give them a bonus to casting speed (maybe a new ability?) and give shield blocks/parry the ability to stop spell interruption. Though, idk how they'd make the potency work for Cure. With all the crazy ideas in this thread about caster tanks though, I don't think it would be nearly as difficult, and considering we got Clemency, it might not even be necessary. I think their intention with 3.0 was to move them in this direction, but it failed a bit with Clemency considering you can see that they wanted us to use it more frequently by looking at the TP values of PLD.

...what better way for a physical healer to enter the fray then Dancer?

RDM (° ͜ʖ ͡°) and considering that RDM can cast spells, they could back off the boss when necessary. I think RDM is their most solid healer choice out of the remaining popular jobs: SAM, RDM, BLU, DNC, BST, and RNG. That's not to say they couldn't make an entirely new healer, which they might. I also think DNC makes for a really great melee support, which is currently missing. I've never really considered DNC to be a full blown healer in any game even in FFXI where it was more of a solo class that you could do small content with. Dances also seem better suited to functioning like BRD songs, giving the party an array of different buffs or giving the enemies debuffs. We also need a pure DPS ranged job, so I think RNG would fit this nicely.

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All this discussion on SAM being both a tank and DPS (Shogun/Ronin jobs) is thrilling!

[EdwinLi]

I'm guessing you don't remember DF when 3.0 launched. It was nearly impossible for tanks to queue, and DPS had the easiest time for awhile.

As stated before what happened in 3.0 was a very short period of increase. A lot of people wanted to try out Dark Knight and speed level the Job to lvl 50. However, that only lasted around 1 month and after that the queue returned to the usual tank instant queue and DPS longer queue.

We are talking about long term increase in Tank population which involves keeping players playing a Tank Job longer than a 1 month period. Even if they decide to add 2 Tank Jobs per expansion or something if the player base of Tank players does not stay higher than it originally started before the release of those New Tank jobs longer than 3 or 4 months then it will not be considered a significant increase in Tank population for long terms.

On topic:
As fun as this discussion been Yoshi-P plan to only release 2 jobs per expansion now, as stated back in 3.0 interviews, will certainly put a bit of a higher standard than currently. However, this will certainly make or break FF14 if the reduction to 2 new jobs per expansion doesn't end up producing enjoyable New Jobs.

[Yhisa]

Cant we just all agree that players only want samurai due to nostalgia sake only?

[DWolfwood]

As stated before what happened in 3.0 was a very short period of increase. A lot of people wanted to try out Dark Knight and speed level the Job to lvl 50. However, that only lasted around 1 month and after that the queue returned to the usual tank instant queue and DPS longer queue.

We are talking about long term increase in Tank population which involves keeping players playing a Tank Job longer than a 1 month period. Even if they decide to add 2 Tank Jobs per expansion or something if the player base of Tank players does not stay higher than it originally started before the release of those New Tank jobs longer than 3 or 4 months then it will not be considered a significant increase in Tank population for long terms.


On topic:
As fun as this discussion been Yoshi-P plan to only release 2 jobs per expansion now, as stated back in 3.0 interviews, will certainly put a bit of a higher standard than currently. However, this will certainly make or break FF14 if the reduction to 2 new jobs per expansion doesn't end up producing enjoyable New Jobs.

I'd say we're still seeing the diminishing returns of the benefit from having released DRK. Yes, it drops off fast after a month, but considering that month is the one in which people are going to be leveling new jobs the most, it's also the most crucial. Yoshida himself has said that they lead job development in expansions with the tank because it should be the most interesting job and inspire people to play it the most. If you flip that around and either don't release a tank or make it the least interesting job, you have the reverse outcome where that first month of DF becomes unbearably bad for non-tanks, slowly alleviating but still never as high as it would be in say 3.x since you still find many people wanting to level DRK in DF purely because of the aesthetic of the job.

Also, I wouldn't go stating that they're only releasing 2 jobs per expansion as fact just yet. The dev team did jokingly say "never again" when asked about creating 3 jobs at once, but that was a different schedule. SAM had already been worked on a bit, and they rushed those jobs since they had been developing NIN prior. They will have had 2 years since 3.0 came out by the time 4.0 realistically comes around, so it's plenty time to keep up with the power-trio job release that is optimal.

[Shurrikhan]

Cant we just all agree that players only want samurai due to nostalgia sake only?

I think it's more that some of those assuming the worst would still find it playable if only due to branding.
Those assuming nothing at all want what they once enjoyed (thinking it'll somehow be nearly the same).
Those hoping the best want it for what new gameplay components it could potentially introduce, which may happen to include certain classics as well.

[ADVSS]

I think people want iconic Final Fantasy jobs in a Final Fantasy MMO, not just for nostalgia sake. Also find it odd that Red Mage has been around since the very first FF and yet we have to wait at least another year to see it, if it is included in this next expansion.

[FinalWolf]

Still waiting yoshi

[FallenWings]

It is fallacious to think that only 'Final Fantasy' fans play Final fantasy XIV.

Although this is naturally only speculation, the current set of Jobs fit the general fantasy trope more than anything and are a lot more 'iconic' to the general populace.

For example, anyone will know what a Paladin is, and thus its appealing to the wider audience. Easy to understand and relateable to other non-SE fantasy games they may have played.

'Red Mage'? What is that? A caster that only wears red? The name and style of the class is only relateable to people who know the class beyond it's ambiguous name. It's better from a business stand point to use and develop something that appeals to essentially everyone first to gather more players than just FF fans.

But I digress.

Personally I'm on the side of SAM as a tank purely from an aesthetic stand point. I care not either way it goes since I prefer axes over katanas.
It just makes more sense for SAM to be fighting on the front rather than behind. I generally never affiliate Samurais as anything less than WARRIORS. Y'know, honour and all that. Actually engaging in battle with an enemy rather than striking essentially a dummy. Plus there's already Ninjas for your eastern themed DPS focused classes, it as someone has said earlier, would explain why Doma fell so easily if all their fighters were all just dirty ninjas trying to fight using underhanded tactics.

[silentwindfr]

snips

i invite you to read about Miyamoto Musashi and him...."tactics".

more important, we can say the same... we already have 3 western tank and tons of western dps. but like i have said before it will be dps, since yoshida have already said it. plus no point to add another tank physical.

the trouble here is not because people think it look better as tank, more is tank that want to have a samurai for play tank, most of the people wanting to play samurai that don't like play tank will not play it because they don't like the role... add another tank will not help and have no sense, you say it yourself, samurai = warrior for doma is pointless to bring it as a tank then... since guess what we already have the warrior.

[FallenWings]

I don't quite understand your points so hopefully I'm not wrong with my rebuttal.

One example of out of the ordinary tactics does not change the general view of what is essentially a warrior. Samurais are by virtue essentially japanese equivalent of knights. Armoured to be protected from arrows and other light weaponry and wield swords to cut peasants.

Samurai are what you would expect of your standard footmen in a millitary. They're not specialized assassins or anything like that. They're borne fighters that engage in open combat, head on with enemies. Your footmen, your soldiers, your knights.

My points were not in any means in respect to balance. They're purely aesthetical. And if a person won't play a class because of some misconceived notion that X doesn't fit in X role because of biased X reason never really was X class to begin with.

You're not a Knight if all you do is hide in the shadows and poison your enemies while they have their guard down.